Pit Bulls (continued)

[RedFury]

@Stoid

For the record, I just wanted to make note of something:

Which was the last we heard from RedFury.

Just taking note.

Mainly becuase you bore the shit out of me & I think you’re nuts:

Fatal pit bull attacks sharply rise in 2013 259 people have helped this campaign

Pitbull attack

[pulykamell]

@RedFury

Pitbull attack

Yeah. OK.

Pitbull Apologists are not welcome here! We already know your point of view, we find it disturbing and complicit in innocent people being maimed and killed

Sounds like just the place for rational discussion.

[kambuckta]

@RedFury

Mainly becuase you bore the shit out of me & I think you’re nuts:

Fatal pit bull attacks sharply rise in 2013 259 people have helped this campaign

Pitbull attack

You’re wasting your time RedFury.

Firstly, the nutters will tell you that there’s no such thing as a pitbull or that all the fatalities were by other dogs but mis-identified as pitbulls because, y’know, there’s no way to tell a pitbull etc and people blame pitbulls just because?

Secondly, that all those deaths and injuries were caused by irresponsible owners, nothing to do with the inherent instability of the breed. I thought irresponsible owners covered all the dog breed spectrum…if that’s so, how come there’s still a huge disparity between the fatality rate from pitbull attacks vs any other breed of dog?

Thirdly, all pitbulls are cuddly and gorgeous and loyal and adore kids and would never hurt a fly, ever.

:rolleyes:

[pulykamell]

Yes, all of us who own pit bulls are “nutters.” :rolleyes:

See, that is exactly why we can’t have a fucking rational discussion about this. Because one side thinks the other is automatically “nutters” and the other side thinks the other are “haters.”

[kambuckta]

@pulykamell

Yes, all of us who own pit bulls are “nutters.” :rolleyes:

I’m not talking about individuals who own individual pit bull dogs. I’m talking about the nutters IN THIS THREAD who dispute each and every bit of evidence that shows that pit bulls are disproportionately responsible for more serious attacks and more fatalities than any other dog breed.

I’m sure there are some very decent owners with perfectly well behaved dogs who will never attack anybody, ever.

But to argue that there are never any problems with pit bulls is pure bullshit, and that is why we can’t have a fucking rational discussion about it!

[pulykamell]

@kambuckta

But to argue that there are never any problems with pit bulls is pure bullshit, and that is why we can’t have a fucking rational discussion about it!

I don’t know who’s arguing that, though. In the statements you made, I would say:

1. There is some merit to that, but let’s not nit-pick. I’ll call 'em all pit bulls.

2. I don’t think the breed is particularly instable. But, if something goes wrong, it will cause problems. This is probably your best argument against the breed.

3. No. Of course not. Who would say this?

[kambuckta]

Well, I’ve been scrolling through the posts in this thread. Here’s the first complete bullshit one:

@Stoid

You believe that pit bulls are inherently untrustworthy, that they will go from friendly and trained and sweet to vicious killers in an instant, without reason and without warning, no matter how they were raised or what their history is.

No dog will behave that way, it is completely unnatural and against their instincts. It cannot be “bred” into them, because it is bizarre and nonsensical. Any dog that behaves that way has a neurological disorder that has broken their normal brain function.

I’m here all night…get ready for some more gems (I’m only on page 3 so far), or you could do me a favour and read the fucking thread yourself. It’s full of teh stupid.

[kayaker]

@pulykamell

See, that is exactly why we can’t have a fucking rational discussion about this. Because one side thinks the other is automatically “nutters” and the other side thinks the other are “haters.”

I can see some validity in each sides claims, making me a "“hutter”. Or maybe a “nater”, I’m not sure.

[Stoid]

@kambuckta

It’s full of teh stupid.

Yes, and also full of the facts, fighting the stupid, such as the statement you quoted. (although as an example of “complete bullshit”) You declined to elaborate, so we are left to presume some detail. Please correct me if I am mistaken, but it looks very much as though you believe that all, or most of the following things are true, or mostly true, since they are the opposite of my statements, and you declared my statements to be complete bullshit (I have added some emphasis not in the original because it relates to what is coming next):

• Pit bulls are inherently untrustworthy
• Pit bulls will go from friendly and trained and sweet to vicious killers in an instant, without reason and without warning, no matter how they were raised or what their history is.
• This can be bred into them.
• Healthy, non-disordered dogs can and do behave this way.
• And of course, believing these things makes sense, because this behavior is not bizarre, not nonsensical, natural, and instinctive.

Again, please refine or correct anything that I have been mistaken about.

And before I go any further, I stipulate in advance to the fact that people claim that dogs have behaved this way, and I stipulate that they believe they are telling the truth and that they have an accurate perception of the truth. However, what people believe and think they know is not the best measure of what is actually true in these cases.

Dr. Sophia Yin:

But once out in private practice, she quickly realized that more pets were euthanized due to behavior problems than medical ones. She went back to school to study animal behavior, and earned her Master’s in Animal Science in 2001 from UC Davis where she studied vocal communication in dogs and worked on behavior modification in horses, giraffes, ostriches, and chickens. During this time she was also the award-winning pet columnist for the San Francisco Chronicle. Upon receiving her degree focused on animal behavior, Dr. Yin served for five years as a lecturer in the UC Davis Animal Science Department. Through these and an eclectic collection of other animal behavior experiences, she came to realize the true secret to successful behavior modification.

“Based on my experience as a veterinarian focused on behavior, I feel safe in saying that the majority of people who are bitten think that the bite comes out of the blue or that the dog is just mean or unpredictable. The truth is that the majority of bites are actually due to fear and they occur because humans fail to recognize the signs of fear in dogs. To make matters worse, people often assume that dogs should be friendly with all people all the time and consequently they greet and interact with unfamiliar dogs in a way that is rude or scary.”

Home

Two of the most important steps in dog bite prevention are for humans to learn how to greet dogs correctly (don’t give dogs a reason to bite) and **to read dog body language **so they know when to leave a dog alone. (Learn to understand the warnings they will virtually always give) Read how to do both here.

Home

Understanding dogs is essential for Dog Bite Prevention. This video illustrates why so many people are bitten by dogs every year. In this animation, a child approaches a dog even when the dog shows signs of fear and avoidance. Watch to see the signs of fear. It’s important to realize that even highly trained, calm, well-behaved dogs can be fearful of both children and unfamiliar adults. Even if they have never bitten before, if cornered or if they feel they can’t escape they can learn to attack in order to defend themselves. For more information on reading canine body language and greeting dogs correctly read the related blog articles and download the free body language in dogs poster.

http://positively.com/2011/05/17/why-dogs-bite-children-a-lesson-in-preventing-dog-bites-in-kids/:

To some people the bites may seem out of the blue, but to those in the know, the causes are obvious.

Says Dianne Fabretti, a registered veterinary technician for the Sacramento County Animal Care and Regulation, “We read [bite reports] and it tends to be **people don’t know body language of animals [and] they don’t exhibit proper behavior to the animals so the animal behaves as an animal.”
**
She emphasizes further, “People don’t educate their children as to how to handle and act around animals. I know that. I have one son and two stepsons and I was always amazed what kids do and how much more training kids need in terms of how to act around the animals.”

It’s all in the education according to Fabretti and the worst part, is that when children are not taught what to do and what to avoid around dogs, dogs get into situations where they need to defend themselves and the results are not only bad for the kids but can be much worse for the dog. Says Fabretti, “When animals do bite, people get emotional. The [dogs] end up here and most are euthanized.”

I have boatloads more, but I’m not going to spend the time and energy repeating, particularly if you have nothing in reply. The fact is that dogs (whatever the breed) do NOT attack without warning, for no reason. People are just ignorant…a condition rampant in the population, which this site exists to combat. So let your ignorance be vanquished on this subject.

[Stoid]

@RedFury

Mainly becuase you bore the shit out of me & I think you’re nuts:

Fatal pit bull attacks sharply rise in 2013 259 people have helped this campaign

Pitbull attack

None of which has anything to do with the task you set for yourself, which was to point out the facts I’ve demonstrated myself to be ignorant of. I know all about the people killed by dogs (that fall into the huge category of “pit bull”). I have never denied it. My arguments have not been to dissect what is or is not a pit bull, because it really doens’t matter: it’s dogs. Dogs killing people. There is no evidence at all suggesting that there is something fundamentally different about pit bull dogs that makes them inherently more dangerous, and there is a great deal of evidence to explain why and how it has ended up that dogs so designated dominate the fatality statistics.

I am into evidence. Facts. Science. Data. Studies. Research. I’m not seeing and have not seen a teaspoon’s worth of any of that from the people who want to ban certain types of dogs, and in fact I’ve seen a great deal of baseless, unexplained denial of evidence, facts, science, data, studies and research, followed by rude, repetitive, utterly baseless declarations that no matter what genuine experts may say, it’s just “obvious” that “pit bulls” are magically different than all other dogs.

And that doesn’t even go into the issue of how ridiculous it is to make an issue of this in the first place, and the reflection it is of the human tendency to have irrational emotional responses to things no matter how statistically insignificant they may be.

[RedFury]

Updated fatality statistics.

** In 2009 there were 32 dog mauling fatalities in the United States. Of this total 14 were due to pit bulls, 44%

In 2010 there were 33 dog mauling fatalities in the United States. Of this total 22 were due to pit bulls, 67%

In 2011 there were 31 dog mauling fatalities in the United States. Of this total 22 were due to pit bulls, 77%

In 2012 there were 38 dog mauling fatalities in the United States. Of this total 23 were due to pit bulls, 61%

In 2013 from January 1st to March 6th there have been six fatal dog maulings in the United States. Of this total 6 were due to pit bulls, 100%**

[RedFury]

Dog bite-related fatalities in the United States by category of dog(s) involved

[Robert163]

@Stoid

None of which has anything to do with the task you set for yourself, which was to point out the facts I’ve demonstrated myself to be ignorant of. I know all about the people killed by dogs (that fall into the huge category of “pit bull”). I have never denied it. My arguments have not been to dissect what is or is not a pit bull, because it really doens’t matter: it’s dogs. Dogs killing people. There is no evidence at all suggesting that there is something fundamentally different about pit bull dogs that makes them inherently more dangerous, and there is a great deal of evidence to explain why and how it has ended up that dogs so designated dominate the fatality statistics.

I am into evidence. Facts. Science. Data. Studies. Research. I’m not seeing and have not seen a teaspoon’s worth of any of that from the people who want to ban certain types of dogs, and in fact I’ve seen a great deal of baseless, unexplained denial of evidence, facts, science, data, studies and research, followed by rude, repetitive, utterly baseless declarations that no matter what genuine experts may say, it’s just “obvious” that “pit bulls” are magically different than all other dogs.

And that doesn’t even go into the issue of how ridiculous it is to make an issue of this in the first place, and the reflection it is of the human tendency to have irrational emotional responses to things no matter how statistically insignificant they may be.

so when was the last year that dalmatians were responsible for more than 50% of deaths by mauling?

[purplehorseshoe]

Shit, I can’t think of the last time that I’ve even ***seen *a dalmation. I know they’re not exactly as rare as hen’s teeth or anything, but a less-popular breed is naturally going to be responsible for fewer bites or attacks. There just aren’t that many of them around!
** currently. I’m aware that the breed went through a popularity boom a while ago following the release of a certain Disney movie.

[Robert163]

@purplehorseshoe

Shit, I can’t think of the last time that I’ve even ***seen *a dalmation. I know they’re not exactly as rare as hen’s teeth or anything, but a less-popular breed is naturally going to be responsible for fewer bites or attacks. There just aren’t that many of them around!
** currently. I’m aware that the breed went through a popularity boom a while ago following the release of a certain Disney movie.

that was not my point really, pick any breed.

[Stoid]

Robert, have you read the thread, or are just jumping inafter skimming the last page?

[Stoid]

New acronym for this thread: DDAPB…Dogs Described As “pit bulls”…

[Stoid]

@RedFury

Dog bite-related fatalities in the United States by category of dog(s) involved

@RedFury

Updated fatality statistics.

None of which has anything to do with the task you set for yourself, which was to point out the facts I’ve demonstrated myself to be ignorant of. I know all about the people killed by dogs (that fall into the huge category of “pit bull”). I have never denied it. My arguments have not been to dissect what is or is not a pit bull, because it really doens’t matter: it’s dogs. Dogs killing people. **There is no evidence at all suggesting that there is something fundamentally different about pit bull dogs that makes them inherently more dangerous, and there is a great deal of evidence to explain why and how it has ended up that dogs so designated dominate the fatality statistics.
**
I am into evidence. Facts. Science. Data. Studies. Research. I’m not seeing and have not seen a teaspoon’s worth of any of that from the people who want to ban certain types of dogs, and in fact I’ve seen a great deal of baseless, unexplained denial of evidence, facts, science, data, studies and research, followed by rude, repetitive, utterly baseless declarations that no matter what genuine experts may say, it’s just “obvious” that “pit bulls” are magically different than all other dogs.

And that doesn’t even go into the issue of how ridiculous it is to make an issue of this in the first place, and the reflection it is of the human tendency to have irrational emotional responses to things no matter how statistically insignificant they may be.

[Robert163]

@Stoid

None of which has anything to do with the task you set for yourself, which was to point out the facts I’ve demonstrated myself to be ignorant of. I know all about the people killed by dogs (that fall into the huge category of “pit bull”). I have never denied it. My arguments have not been to dissect what is or is not a pit bull, because it really doens’t matter: it’s dogs. Dogs killing people. **There is no evidence at all suggesting that there is something fundamentally different about pit bull dogs that makes them inherently more dangerous, and there is a great deal of evidence to explain why and how it has ended up that dogs so designated dominate the fatality statistics.
**
I am into evidence. Facts. Science. Data. Studies. Research. I’m not seeing and have not seen a teaspoon’s worth of any of that from the people who want to ban certain types of dogs, and in fact I’ve seen a great deal of baseless, unexplained denial of evidence, facts, science, data, studies and research, followed by rude, repetitive, utterly baseless declarations that no matter what genuine experts may say, it’s just “obvious” that “pit bulls” are magically different than all other dogs.

And that doesn’t even go into the issue of how ridiculous it is to make an issue of this in the first place, and the reflection it is of the human tendency to have irrational emotional responses to things no matter how statistically insignificant they may be.

well the facts say, conclusively, that pitt bulls kill more people, LOTS more

[kayaker]

@Robert163

well the facts say, conclusively, that pitt bulls kill more people, LOTS more

You’re thinking of the Pitt Panthers, right?