Pit bull's...when will we have enough?

Great Debates
61

The fact of the matter is that “pit bulls” are already covered under our existing dog safety laws. It is already illegal to own a vicious dog. It doesn’t matter what breed the dog is, if it is a vicious dog then it can be legally destroyed.

And everyone here who is supporting pit bulls agrees with that law. Everyone agrees that vicious dogs should be destroyed.

But it is obvious that not all pit bulls are vicious dogs, in fact the vast majority of pit bulls are not vicious dogs. Therefore, it makes no sense to destroy all pit bulls and assume that you are going to solve the problem of vicious dogs.

Listen, I’m against dogs attacking people. Banning specific breeds of dogs will not solve the problem. Regulating dog and owner behavior will solve the problem. Banning specific breeds is simply ignorance. And anyway, there is no consistent and logical way to decide if a dog is a “pit bull” or not.

Vicious dogs should be destroyed. Some pit bulls are vicious dogs and should be destroyed, but banning the pit bull breed is counterproductive, unworkable, and ignorant.

62

I don’t know if dogs will really leave you alone if you don’t “act like prey.” I was bitten by a Doberman as a child, and I was not teasing the dog, acting “like prey”, or anything else. I was walking down the street–not sidewalk–past the dog owner’s house, about 50 feet from my own yard, and was not even aware there was a dog around. The dog was by the front door of the owner’s house, playing with his owner. Toby (the doberman) suddenly raced up to me and bit me on the leg. I yelled “Toby, no!” and threw away a stick in my hand (thinking that maybe the dog wanted the stick; I did NOT throw the stick at the dog, I threw it in front of me a few feet, and Toby had already latched onto my calf by then anyhow). Fortunately I was wearing pants and since the owner was there he called the dog off right away (though he probably had to call half a dozen times before Toby let go), but it still broke the skin and left a scar. I did not run, I did not taunt the dog or stare at it, I was not on the person’s property, I called the dog off by name and it still did no good. I suspect dogs attack more often out of territorial instinct rather than prey-instinct, and once you’ve set foot into an aggressive dog’s territory (which often is much bigger than the dog’s yard, based on the dogs that have gone for my ankles when biking in the street), you’ll likely be toast since a dog is generally much faster than a human and will chase beyond its territory once enraged. And how exactly do you not “act like prey”? Not be small and slow and scared when a eighty pound dog is charging after you?

63

But you weren’t attacked by a pit bull, you were attacked by another breed. I agree that most dog attacks are probably territorial in nature, not predatory. That said, the best thing to do is act like you are an alpha dog. But even so, sometimes dogs attack people for reasons that aren’t clear. Dog attacks can be minimized by following some simple rules, but there is no way to prevent all dog attacks.

The only sure way to prevent dog attacks it to destroy all dogs. If even one death from a dog attack is too many, then unfortunately that means that we must put every dog on the planet to sleep. If that’s what you people are arguing for, then just say so, since there is no way around it. Putting down all pit bulls is a pathetic half measure, the real problem is dogs.

64

I have my doubts about this. Do you have some backup for your belief that you should make eye contact and act aggressive towards (alpha behavior) an aggressive dog? I’d avoid direct eye contact and back slowly away. Or if on a bike, I might chance trying to get the hell out of there ASAP, hoping I could outpace the dog. I might try cowing some little yappy dog, but not a dog that’ll kick my ass ten falls out of ten.

65

One of Demise’s ideas;

Oh, that’ll do it. It’s all those people “shreaking and shrilling” that caused the boy to get mauled.
Of course you can’t kill all dogs. That would be cruel, and a great loss to us all.
How about requiring all dogs to be muzzled when outside the house, even in one’s own yard? They do escape. Would this diminish a dogs value as a defense weapon?
Destroy dogs that exhibit extreme aggressive and viscious behavior, as these dogs did? They would snarl and chew at the fence, trying to get at people and other dogs passing by on the street and sidewalk.
Aggressively combat, by existing laws, dog fighting? Kill all dogs involved in this activity, and subject the people involved to some serious punishment for cruelty to animals and endangerment to the public?
My daughter had a “pit bull”. Raised it like a baby from the time it was a puppy. Gentle treatment, always. The dog grew up sweet tempered. The first time a neighbor kid annoyed it the dog snapped at the kid, and was corrected. The second time (different kid), the dog bit, and was pulled off by her husband. Both times the kids were playing, away from the dog. That was it. Poor dog. RIP, Max. We were buddies.
She still misses that pooch, and so do I. :frowning:
Peace,
mangeorge

66

I knew this topic would come up again. Here is another link where I was lambasted for my negative views towards pit bulls. About 2% of the dog population in America are pitbulls, yet they are responsible for 30% of the homocides committed by dogs. That means that a pitbull is 15 times more likely to kill than the average dog. Sounds like more than enough to warrant a recall of the breed. Clearly a particularly dangerously unstable and antisocial breed that provides no warning of attack, and about as welcome in a neighbourood with kids as a bear or a child molester.

67

About two and a half years ago, my dog, A chow chow (soon to be a most hated breed) was attacked by a pit bull. (This was outside of Cleveland before the laws mentioned above were enacted) The woman who was walking the pit bull had no control over her dog. Her numerous attempts to kick it in the head to get it to let go of my dog were unsuccessful. Based on that action alone I agree with the above suggestion that owners should be liscensed before they are allowed to own any breed of dog.

I know this is anticdotal but the lesson I learned from this is that it is the owner’s responsibility to have control of their dog at all times. A dog is a dog and you just don’t know what will happen if the dog is in the right place at the wrong time. Even the best trained dog can be freaked out by something and react in an agressive way.

Keep 'em on leashes, keep yourself insured and train them properly.

In case you wonderin’ my dog recovered and is doing well now.

68

There’s a lot of mis-information to a lot of the threads on this subject, It’s that lack of understanding that contributes to these animals being the way they are. A pit bull is not capable of 1,500 PSI of pressure in thier jaws, Do you know that the PSI on a tire to a compact car is on average 35? weigh it. Pit bulls stand out as far as ‘crushing bones’ because they have the the bred in instinct to please the owner and will go to any length to do so. The most common use for these dogs these days is fighting but these dogs are also known to be high in ranks of competition in agility, Some have even been taught to climb trees!
Ignorance is what breeds these dogs, If you look at the statistics of un-prompted bites you’ll find that most of them belong to smaller dogs which have a noticibly less docile personality IE terriers, Chiuahuas, Pommerainians and by un-prompted I also mean not bred to fight.
It’s 100% the owners faults; it’s the stereotype that this is what these dogs are meant for that causes this. If the last 300 hundread years we had been cleaning our ears with guns instead of shooting people guns would be looked upon differently, Maybe adopt one as little Johnnys new best friend, But if Johnny thinks guns are mean to hurt and kicks that gun around for a while… They always have the capability of causing real damage as does ANY animal.
The FACTS are:
Dalmatians are higher on the bite list than pit bulls also higher were, Chows, Labs, Goldens, Rotties, Dobermans, and Cocker Spaniels.
So much for that cute Disney Movie huh?
In a 1993 study, Bites were ranked by severity from 1 to 4 and the animal that was recorded as having inflicted the greatest number of severe bites; was the domestic short-haired cat.
They have no significant lead as far as jaw power
They are classified as working dogs
They are unfortunately but very commonly inbred

while many cities across North America have considered breed specific bans, many decide against those bans after a close look at the fact. Those facts show that banning specific breeds is not an effective solution to the real problem at hand - the dog owners.
I urge you to do something more constructive with your time than trying to pass a law to eliminate a wonderful breed of dog and aim it to something more needed like control of the mass breeding of these animals, This leads to not only the obvious over abundance of these dogs filling up the shelters, But it causes these dogs to become “Throw Aways” the monentary value of the dog being so small people can afford to purchase or obtain for free, These animals and doing with them as they please. If I speant $1,200 on a dog I would be a lot less inclined to fight them and have it killed than had I got it for free or for $50.00.
I’m soon to graduate, I’ll be a DVM, My lifes dream, I hope in my practice I can turn some of this around.

69

Bull mastiffs - Saw a guy on Ipanema playing fetch with his … using a LARGE green coconut. Now there’s a dangerous animal.

Komodo dragons - What actresses’ husband recently just about lost a toe? Talk about infections!

Chihuahuas - Thes little buggers look SO cute and the next thing you know they’re munching on your fingers or nose like a runaway garbage disposal.

Manatees - Anyone ever hit one of these jerks-of-the-high- seas at high speed? Having your face smack the “durably- constructed” boat windshield isn’t fun. He probably thought that spilling my beer on my new boats’ carpet was cute, also.

70

I’m sorry…what does this mean?

71

PSI is pounds per square inch, An earlier comment stated that a pit bull has 1,500 pounds of pressure per square inch in it’s jaws.

72

An update on the boy’s condition, if you’re interested;
http://www.contracostatimes.com/news/leads/stories_two/dogfolo_20010623.htm
Peace,
mangeorge

73

Yes, but what does a tire have to do with it, and what did the “weigh it” comment mean?

And I know what PSI is - see my earlier post in this thread.

FTR - this “maximum” pressure is measured at the peak point in the jaws, which is at the hinge - near the rear molars. It is not a fair number for comparison anyways, since a jaw with a different shape may do a lot more damage at the same measured “peak” pressure.

74

Some of you might find this gratifying:

Woman bites pit bull to save pet

BTW, I found this link–and the Windsor Castle spider story–via the Breaking News section of Fortean Times Online. Many of you are probably familiar with this magazine already. For those who aren’t, it might be worth a look. It’s a monthly; certainly not Skeptical Inquirer, but not Fate either.

75

**

Statistics are never 100% accurate so I’m sure that’s why the “may be” is in there. Basically, anything that causes us to pay out a claim to one of our insureds because of something a dog did (bite/attack) is “related to dog attacks.”

**

Someone already called me on this comment earlier. If you’ll look back at my response to them on the first page you’ll see that I admitted that that statement is over the top, along with a couple other additional comments.

76

I think it’s significant in the same way “saturday night special” and “assault-type weapons” and terms like that are significant: It sounds scary. It’s a nice, round, big number, so it’s likely to sit in your memory like the hook in a song from K.C. & The Sunshine Band. Effective propaganda, in other words.

In fact, if the information on this site is correct, then bite strength should be much higher than that:

16e+7 N/m[sup]2[/sup] converts to psi like this:


 16e+7 N         1 lb          1 m[sup]2[/sup]
---------  x  ----------  x  ---------
   m[sup]2[/sup]          4.459 N      (39.37 in)[sup]2[/sup]

Which is: 160,000,000 / 4.459 / 1550 or about 23,150 p.s.i. So, since it takes over 23,000 p.s.i. to crush human bone, I’d say a pit bull probably can exert quite a bit more than 1500 p.s.i.

There’s always the possibility that my information is wrong, or that I applied it wrong (torsional strength instead of compressive, maybe?), but regardless, 1500 p.s.i. doesn’t really mean squat when you’re talking about pointy sharp teeth with small cross-sectional area.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate.

77

Also, statistics can mean different things depending on how you interpret them. Grienspace can look at the statistics and find that pit bulls make up 30% of the dogs who bite. I can look at the same statistics and say that 30% of the owners of vicious dogs have chosen to get a pit bull.

78

If a dog owner trains their dog to be mean and violent, it likely will be.

You don’t hear about Collies and Shi’tzus killing, because who the heck ever trains them to do so? Oh, no! Killer Shi’tzu on the loose!!! Come on, let’s be realistic. Dogs only want to please their owners, but they are also ALL pack animals and need their owners to establish Alpha status in order for them to be the best behaved. As a poster pointed out earlier, even Golden Retrievers can be mean – any dog can be mean. And look at the response of the owner. I’ll bet that’s not the only person that dog ever bit, which is why the jerk left without so much as a, “are you okay?” Heck, he [knew] the guy wasn’t okay, just like all the others the dog bit weren’t okay – see, the guy wasn’t shocked at all, was he? Obviously, this is conjecture, but it makes sense to me.

I’ve owned a Pit Bull and he was a sweetie, but he was raised to be a sweetie.

People like to fight Pits because they are strong, fast, agile, and they have locking jaws – NOT because they are inherently violent. One thing that is important when raising Pits is establishing who is in control; like other breeds, they need that. A dog with a lax owner will not be a well-behaved dog in any case, but with some breeds it’s even more important.

Tell me, those of you who would see Pits banned, would you also like to see German Shepards, Dobermans, and Rotweillers banned? These dogs are also responsible for injuries. But then, so are poodles (and they can be VERY mean, particularly the standard-sized poodles).

Where does it stop? Ban idiot owners, not dogs.

79

Well, the more I think about my last post, the more I think something doesn’t smell right. I’m pretty sure it takes a lot less than 23,000 lbs of force to crush bone. Hmmm. It’s really not relevant to this debate, though. So I’ll drop it until I find better info.

80

Yeah, right here on the SDMB.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=57725

I have an American Pit Bull Terrier. I love this dog deeply. We also have a Rottweiller. I love that dog deeply too. (We also have 3 cats. I like them.)

I have a 6 foot chainlink fence around my back yard with locks and beware of dog signs on both gates. My dogs do not leave the yard unleashed.

The APBT is a very active, strong dog with a very high prey drive. It is very game, which means a lot of things. Mostly that it likes to fight with other dogs and will not consider losing a fight. It requires a very responsible owner. Because of it’s strength and gameness it attracts a lot of insecure, immature, adolescent boys of all ages who lack the responsibility to properly care for any dog, let alone an APBT. That’s where the problem comes from.

Most communities have leash laws. I cannot imagine a leashed dog mauling a person or other animal unless the person holding the other end of the leash wants it to. I agree with leash laws for all dogs. They prevent dog bites and a lot of other safety/sanitation problems.

So, my dogs should be killed because irresponsible boys don’t follow the laws already on the books. Or should my dogs be killed because reactionary sheep are afraid of them?