I used to breed and train pitbulls. I currently own a dogue de bourdeaux, a german shepherd, a rottweiler, a bandog, and an american bulldog. First of all, protection trained dogs are less likely to bite than are untrained dogs. When I was young I did schutzhund work with almost all of my dogs, including my pits. A trained dog waits for either a cue from you or an obdvious problem with a particular person. They don’t bite because the neighbors kid is annoying them. They don’t bite because someone put their face to close to them. Their owners, contrary to being sickos, spend a lot of time and effort on their dogs. We know them backward and forward, wich is a heck of a lot more than the average dog owning public knows about their dogs. I think the real problems with pits are that when they do bite the damage is severe-these dogs were bred not to quite, to ignore physical pain, to have very over developed jaw muscles, and they enjoy the battle. Plus there are a lot and I mean a LOT of pit bulls out there. And the majority are backyard breedings with no thought to the outcome of the dogs. I.E., they are crap. They generally are mentally not terribly stable. Their prey drive is very high and once it’s turned on-watch out. Their bite inhibition is very low. Now, I love pit bulls. I have only stopped dealing with them because I find them to be really destructive to property. I liked training them. I liked living with them. But they are a lot of work and a lot of responsibility. They are also dog aggressive to a point that gets pretty old after a while. I actually DON’T think they are more dangerous than any other dog-I just think the bite from a pit is not the same as a bite from…well, just about any other dog. Also, to the first poster on this thread, I say good for you to recognize an animal, no matter how much you loved it, that shouldn’t be wandering around waiting for the next kid to maul. I think you showed responsibility, even if other people didn’t like it.
This might be true in contrast to untrained non-pit-bull dogs, but the issue with pit bulls is that the breeding focused so heavily against human aggression that you usually can’t train pit bulls to bite a human…*unlike *the guarding dogs. So your guarding breed may be less likely to bite than a lab, but a pit is even less likely to bite than that.
The rash of bite stories we do see comes from:
- media hysteria
- individual hysteria
- difficulty of solidly IDing a “pit bull” (or disinterest in bothering)
- trash owners
- overpopulation of pit bulls
The first three items show that it’s not nearly the problem one would think, and a lot of what problem there is turns out to be different breeds of dog. Sufficiently cold-eyed research will quickly produce anecdotal examples of this.
Here’s one: http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t68676/
A Jack Russell Terrier killed a baby, and the family pit bull, which had been outside in the yard, was taken away and put down even though the family and police admitted he had not been in the house at all. News organizations picked this up as a “dog attack” and that a “pit bull was put down.”
The last two items on my little list are intertwined. There seems to be a universal belief among the trashy people I meet (not stereotyping poor people in general, but the sort of people you know are trouble) that breeding pit bulls is a great way to make money, and it’s off the books and hence tax-free (since you don’t report it). Literally dozens of people I’ve met light up and begin talking about making money when they see a pit bull; it’s disgusting.
This is based on the assumption that there’s a limitless appetite for new pit bulls – which I suppose is true if you’re using them up in the ring. Grrr.
re: Hold and Shake
I have seen every type of breed “hold and shake” not just PB’s. My mom’s tiny, super sweet, cockapoo did this to her toys. She is the most tolerant, submissive dog there is, but she still “kills” her toys.
BTW: I have done rescue and worked in shelters for about 10 years. I have seen biters in all breeds. When temperament testing dogs, I take all types of things in to account, including breed. The major predictor in the outcome of temperament tests seems to be the level of socialization a dog has had, not breed. I have seen labs and goldens fail miserably, pits pass with flying colors. Shelties I wouldn’t turn my back on and rotties I would trust with a small child covered in chopped liver. I don’t trust any dog until they prove that I can trust them.
The idiot dog owners in my area are moving on from pits to Akitas. Pits have been informally* banned from certain towns, so we are seeing a rise in Akitas in these areas. When one comes in to our shelter, I consider them very suspect and will not recommend them for a family without previous experience in the breed.
*We have been asked to not adopt out pits to certain areas in our county. It is not a formal ban and we have yet to have a problem or complaint about the policy.
What I wrote was that pit bulls have a much more aggressive and pronounced hold and shake instinct than other dogs of their same size and strength. Not that no other dogs have it, and not that smaller dogs might not show it. In fact many small dogs including smaller terriers and your mom’s cockapoo hold and shake very aggressively as well. But shake as they may, they don’t have the tooth size, jaw strength, and body mass of a pit bull and thus are not really any more ‘dangerous’ because of it, except maybe to squirrels or the neighbors cat. But larger breeds, (Rottweilers and Shepherds specifically were mentioned) generally do not share this level of hold and shake instinct. All dogs do to some level but the difference is huge between a pit bull and most other breeds their size. Pit Bulls are not the only dogs that were bred for fighting - Fila Brasiliero for example are also known for having an extremely aggressive hold and shake instinct and they are roughly equivalent in size and strength to pit bulls.
I am what Cecil calls Ms. Pit Bull Fancier. Being such I have learned ALOT about the breed and all the statistics that are tossed around about them. It is important for people to realize that often when a dog bites or attacks, even when its a family pet of known breed, it suddenly becomes a pit bull. The term has come to describe “dog who attacks.” Often if you hear a report of a pit bull attack on TV, and if they show a picture of the dog, anyone who knows PB’s will say “That’s not a pit bull!” An animal control officer in Tampa told me that the media there was attributing every dog bite to “pit bulls” and Animal Control had to publicly state that the media had the facts wrong and that Tampa was not suffering from a pit bull-biting epidemic.
The question that Cecil answered is often related to breed-specific legislation (BSL) that is attempting to end dog attacks in a municipality. BSL is very dangerous and gives the government way too much control over individuals and their property (pets). To reduce dog bites, localities should require spay/neuter of dogs if their owner is not a registered tax-paying breeder. They should also enforce leash laws and standards for fenced yards. Tethering should be banned altogether - this is proven to make any breed of dog more aggressive. And of course, there should be tough, and enforced, laws against dog fighting, attending dog fights, or training dogs for the purpose of fighting.
There is a lot of wisdom here. Unfortunately, those whose eyes are deliberately blind will not see it.
There is a lot of wisdom here. Unfortunately, those whose eyes are deliberately blind will not see it.
APBT breed standard: Although I’ve been quoting some websites as saying “maximum mass is 65 pounds for a male, 60 for a female,” actual breed club sources say less: 35-60 for males, 30-50 for females; some clubs say 25-50 for females.
Fila Brasileiro breed standard: minumum mass is 100 pounds for a male, 90 for a female.
That’s almost exactly three times the APBT’s minimum size (35 for male/30 for female) and there’s no listed upper size limit for Filas on the source I cited. Wikipedia lists an even higher size minimum for Filas, “at least 110 pounds.”
Regarding the other two breeds generally recognized as pit bulls – AmStaffs are extremely close to APBTs in all respects (many dogs carry dual registry as AmStaff in one organization and APBT in another)…and Staffybulls are smaller (typically 24 to 32 pounds).
Not to nitpick, but again, the pit bull is NOT a large dog by any standard I’ve seen, and it is NOT comparable in sheer size to a Fila Brasileiro – not even close. The Fila’s minimum size (using the smaller quoted size) is half again the maximum anyone gives for the largest pit bulls.
Sailboat, let’s not go muddying the waters with facts. You’ve been doing that a lot lately. Just stop it.
For anyone who insists that pit bulls are inherently dangerous to humans, I invite you to readthis story, and please explain how such inherently dangerous dogs could possibly be subjected to so much torture and abuse at the hands of humans, said abuse being specifically administered to induce fighting, and end up the way they did.
ESPN E60 has this short piece on Vick’s dogs. It’s worth a look as well.
I saw one very interesting point made about the Vick operation…I can’t remember now where I saw it to give full credit. If you can stand to read some brutal discussion of animal cruelty, please excuse the fact-dense information that I lead off with, because there IS a point coming.
Summary of Facts in the Michael Vick Bad Newz Kennels Dogfighting Case (warning - PDF) (Warning - legalese; warning - animal cruelty; warning - people named “Oogie”)
There appears to be some confusion about the exact number of pit bulls seized alive from the 1915 Moonlight Road property. Possibly this is exacerbated by confusion with a number of non-pit bull dogs also at the scene.
The Summary of Facts says 54 pit bulls, Wikipedia says 49, the Sports Illustrated article quoted by Contrapuntal says 51.
At any rate, Vick and his compatriots confessed to illing 6-8 more for lack of performance.
Also the Summary of Facts says that an additional, unstated number of pit bulls were previously killed for non-performance by the co-conspirators when Vick was not present.
That’s roughly a range of 55 (+/- unknown) to 62 (+/- unknown) pit bulls that passed through Bad Newz Kennels. Let’s round off and say, what, 65? 70?
These dogs were subject to systematic abuse – not random abuse or apathetic neglect, but a systematic boot camp designed to make them aggressive (DOG-aggressive, not necessarily HUMAN-aggressive). They were beaten, taunted, trained, chained to car axles in the woods, exercised on treadmills, and left without human companionship, or whatever passed for human companionship in that place.
They had originally been obtained for the purpose of fighting, and no doubt Vick and/or his agents purchased “hot” dogs (believed to be ready to fight) from allegedly “fighting” bloodlines. In other words, from birth through teir experience in the Moonlight Road bootcamp, these dogs were born and bred and trained to fight each other, to the best of Vick’s ability and deep purse.
So how many of these killer dogs fought?
Five.
Of the five, all but one were losers. Only one of the Vick dogs fought successfully, and he wasn’t regarded as an outstanding success.
That’s 5 out of 65-70+ that would stand in the ring at all, and only one that was aggressive enough to win.
And here is my long-awaited point. Think about that – these are the worst examples of the “aggressive” fighting pit bull, brutalized in a professional “training” facility to make them fight, and he only got one who was any damned good at it at all, out of 65-70 (or more!) dogs. He killed more dogs for refusing to fight than he actually put in the ring, and almost all the dogs washed out as fighters.
Of the 51 dogs the Sports Illustrated article followed, only one was regarded by evaluators as too unstable to risk around humans (I do not know if that was the SAME dog that won fights) and was destroyed. The other 50 went to rescues, fosters, or new homes after extensive evaluation by experts. Some of them will remain in expert custody of the rescues for the rest of their lives because of special needs or because they were deemed to have some level of risk if adopted out, but many have gone to new homes without restrictions. Read the wonderful SI article if you’re curious.
But you are nitpicking, because I said “roughly” the same size and strength of a pit bull and that was in a comparison of the two to a cockapoo. A fila brasileiro is very much more similar in size and strength to a pit bull than a cockapoo is. I can’t think of any dogs exactly the size of a pit bull with similar tear and shake instincts so the fila was the best choice.
Here is a pit bull
Here is a fila brasileiro
Here is a cockapoo
I am in favor of the right to keep both breeds as pets and/or guard dogs provided responsible and humane ownership, same as any other pet big or small. So for a pit bull advocate to argue with me is preaching to the choir. I agree with every argument presented in this thread in favor of pit bulls, and no arguments levied against them, except for the claim that they are not capable of inflicting more serious damage when provoked than the average dog of similar size and strength. That’s all I’m trying to say. They are. Not that they are more likely to attack, not that they are inherently “mean” or “evil”, just that they are built to fight from the ground up over many generations. Its a very simple formula, the dog has been forced to learn for generations how to inflict more damage and absorb more pain and have less fear when involved in a fight to the death that he didn’t even choose. It is not an insult nor a criticism of the breed to accept this fact nor is it, in itself, any reason for the dog to be persecuted, banned or feared. Every pit bull owner should have a healthy respect for the dogs abilities and prevent situations from arising that sometimes arise and make news. I will leave it at that because this is a circular discussion… I’ve devoted 3 posts to basically explain why I think a stronger, more skillful, more aggressive fighting dog can potentially do more damage than a weaker, less skilled, less aggressive lap dog and if I haven’t been able to make my case by now I just won’t be able to.
As a responsible dog owner, I recognize that it is my responsibility to make sure my dog is safe to the people who come into contact with it. I’ve noticed more bully breed dogs as pets/watchdogs in my ‘transitional’ urban neighborhood, than in my previous suburban one. My experience is that people who are looking for easy security or intimidation are more likely to be the kind of people who choose traditionally intimidating dogs (Rotties, Pitts, Shepherds, etc.) and less likely to be the kind of people who give their dog the proper care, exercise, socialization and training. In effect, these dog owners are making the stereotypes true by taking in “bully breeds” and making them into actual bullies. Of course, it cannot be denied that generations of breeding for fighting in the ring, or working as guard dogs, gives these dogs a dangerous edge when they are provoked.
Hi ioduae, there is e a thread on this very subject going on here. I happen to agree with your point of view so please feel free to back me up. 
Well, I think I’m going to nitpick a bit as well. Filas are MASSIVE dogs. My friend has two. Unfortunately I don’t have pictures of them, but here are some others:
“Pitbull” is not a breed; you can’t say that “a pitbull” is “roughly” the same size as a Fila, since there is such a large size span with dogs of the pitbull type, e.g.:
American Staffordhire terrier.
Hideous overbred creature which has trouble walking and breathing (American Bully).
I’ve tried to find pictures where these dogs are with people, so you can see comparative sizes. Even taking into account the fact that some humans are taller than others, the Fila is bigger than ALL of these dogs. I’d say that, of the dogs I’ve linked here, the cockapoo is closest in size to the American Pitbull Terrier.
Also, like people have said here, ALL dogs have the tear and shake instincts. This one, for example. And this one.
Again, the comparison was a pit bull to a cockapoo. I mentioned the Fila primarily because it is another dog bred for fighting, and ‘roughly’ the same size and strength of a pit bull, as compared to a cockapoo. For the purposes of this discussion I have been referring to pit bull as an american bull terrier. It is is by all measures a more “roughly similar” in size and strength to a Fila Brasileiro than a cockapoo. The photo you link shows a particularly lean american bull terrier in show condition but many average much heavier. But this is really getting off the point of the message which was not the similarity between a pit bull and a fila brasileiro, but rather between the damage that pit bull might be able to inflict compared to the damage that a cockapoo might be able to inflict, if provoked. Are you saying that you think a cockapoo carries the same potential for injury as an american bull terrier if provoked? (not more likely to attack…but more likely to be able to cause injury).
Like people including me have said. But the videos you link to are of a golden retriever and a small terrier or schnauzer or something. They don’t have the strength or damage potential of a pit bull, as I said. I am not implying that pit bulls are more likely to attack than any other dog. Just that they can do more damage than the average family dog, like say, for example a cockapoo. But then again, so do some other dogs like, say, for example a Fila Brasileiro. See?
Anyway, arguing to the contrary actually helps endanger our right to own them by encouraging situations that could result in injuries that make the news. This causes genuinely unfair stereotyping and fear of the breed.
Welcome to the SDMB, ioduae.
Since there was already an active thread about the column, I’ve merged your thread into the earlier one. No worries.
bibliophage
moderator CCC
Once again, that’s true only if you’re calling those heavier dogs pit bulls, which is incorrect.
The APBT caps out at 65 pounds for a huge male. Many dogs are much heavier, although not pit bulls.
Hell, if we’re going to go that route, I’m going to point out that a cockapoo has the strength of a blue whale, subject to rounding error, and assert that it ACTUALLY IS a blue whale, if I get to randomly define a given dog breed as being another animal in complete disregard of agreed-upon breed standards, like you are doing.
And one of those blue whales would just crush a pit bull.
Actually, I’m going to call “foul” on Crazyhorse for a different reason. To justify his point, he includes three pictures, one of each dog type. The fila and pit bull are both shown in vicious attack mode, but the cockapoo shown is quietly sitting still. I believe that’s loading the deck. Either show a cockapoo on a rampage, or show happy pictures of the other dogs.
I really tried pretty hard to find a picture that showed a cockapoo with open mouth too. A big part of this discussion has been tooth size and jaw strength. But I can’t find any except one of a cockapoo in surgery with his mouth held open by the vet and I didn’t find it a pleasant picture to post. If you can find a picture of a cockapoo baring his teeth please link it. I do not deny that they have them. I do deny that they can do as much damage with them as a bull terrier or fila brasileiro.
Yes, a dangerous pit bull is more dangerous than a dangerous cockapoo, for similar definitions of dangerous. That seems a bit obvious, and not really in need of belaboring.
That has piss-all to do, however, with whether a pit bull is roughly the same size as a Fila. It isn’t. It’s roughly half the size, and claiming a cockapoo as a point of reference is just silly, and doesn’t affect the equation at all.
I didn’t bring cockapoos into the discussion, someone else did and I was answering their comment. The fact that people are choosing to fixate on an off-hand “rough” comparison of size and strength totally out of context really just serves as more evidence there is no logical argument against the point, which is, that an attacking pit bull is in fact capable of more potential damage than an attacking cockapoo. I agree with you 100% this would seem to be a bit obvious, and not really in need of belaboring, yet here thanks to your comment I find myself on post #6 on the subject. If you read all the posts before chiming in on this same, out of context vein, you could see that I said the comparison was between how much damage a pit bull could do, how much damage a fila brasileiro could do, and how much damage a cockapoo could do. The reference of size and strength similarities between a fila and pit bull in comparison to a cockapoo was incidental, addressing another comment made earlier regarding shaking instinct. You have agreed with the main point of my posts which is about potential damage-dealing capabilities. If you would like to continue measuring cockapoos vs. pit bulls and filas please have it but don’t include me in your findings because it is a completely irrelevant point, and it is bordering on thread hijacking at this point. It is being picked apart because opponents of this point of view have no valid argument to defend their completely irrational and contrary-to-common-sense assertions that a dog bred for fighting like a pit bull or fila brasileiro is not capable of dealing more severe damage if provoked than other dogs who were not bred to fight, like a cockapoo, et al.