Good baseball? People like this don’t care about good baseball. They only care about making sure the pwecious widdle kids’ fewwings don’t get hurt.
Well, except the pitcher, who for whatever reason HAS to pitch to the slugger and gets rocked for a walk-off homer. His feelings are less important. For some reason.
Are you or have you ever been a coach at ANY level of the game?
BTW, here’s the other thread if anyone’s interested.
I know when I played LL I was playing to win the fucking game. I wasn’t playing just for the fun of wearing a glove and swinging the bat. It was FUN to win a truly competitive game and it was almost as exciting to lose a close game.
I can’t believe all this talk about “everyone gets to bat/4 run/in max etc” for a Little League game. You can be all feel-good, group hugs, everyonesawinner in T-Ball and Minor League but LL has always been the break off point in a boys baseball life where he starts competing to win. Shit, at least in my town the next level after LL was Senior League (aka HS Baseball). Playing with the rules that these pansies use all the way through LL there is no way they would have been ready to play SL in my home town.
FTR I think he made the right move with the intentional walk and I highly doubt he was thinking to himself “lets get the cancer boy in there cause he SUXXORS!!!”.
On a side note wasn’t there a guy on 3rd and 1st with 2 out? I would walk the guy just so I could have a play at any base to keep the tying/winning runs from scoring.
*But 9 year olds aren’t ready for the cruel reality of playing by the rules of a game.
My god, if you are playing Life[sup]TM[/sup] you better not hit little Johnny with the REVENGE for a $100,000. Too cruel.*
I am sure the kid just loves being treated different from all the other kids.
Baseball is a game, games have rules, the rules were followed, the kid will be fine and the parent remain dumb. In other news Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead!
Jim
Honestly, I think “Use your head to overcome obstacles” is a much better lesson than “Beat your head against it until it falls over or you do.” I also think, “It’s okay to break the rules if you really, really deserve it,” is an awful lesson. There is a real value in easy-going, “pitch it underhanded to Tommy, he’s kinda slow,” style playing. And that’s in the park, with a bunch of your friends in a pick-up game. But this was not only a league game, it was, apparently, a “title” game, which sounds pretty important to me. I’m guessing the kids on the other team wanted to that title every bit as much as the kid with cancer. It’s situations like this where “fair” is a more important lesson than “friendly.” Otherwise, why not just automatically hand the trophy to the team with the most sick kids?
Er, that’s assuming the title comes with a trophy.
Also, what’s the deal with this?
Am I reading this right? Is the idea here that they don’t count outs, and only end the inning after everyone’s had a chance to bat? Doesn’t this sort of make the whole issue totaly pointless? The sick kid was going to bat no matter what. If the other kid hit a homer, sick kid bats and doesn’t hit anything. If the other kid strikes out, sick kid bats and doesn’t hit anything. If the other kid never gets a chance to swing at the ball, sick kid bats and doesn’t hit anything. Isn’t the sick kid pretty much entirely irrelevant to this story, except that he’s sad he didn’t win the title?
I gathered from an earlier post that this was a PONY league, and that was distinct from Little League?
No. I’ve helped out the coach for the past 6 years with my 11 and 5 year old sons’ teams, but I was never the head coach. Why do you ask?
Oh, you want to imply that I don’t know what I’m talking about. I see. Well, I saw plenty of coaches like you. For example, with the little kids, the unwritten rule is that the kids go station to station - taking one base at a time. But it’s an unwritten rule, so those coaches who would send their runners for extra bases weren’t violating the rules, they were just encouraging competition.
If any coach knows these things about good baseball, why did the other coach not pitch around good players? (Oh, he was probably a stupid coach who didn’t know how to take advantage of the rules, right?)
If competing to develop their skills to the highest level was what mattered, why weren’t they playing in a more appropriate league? Get on the travel team? That kind of thing. They shouldn’t be playing in a league that limits their experience by limiting the number of runs, ensuring that everyone gets an at bat, and so on.
[QUOTE=Stinkpalm]
I can’t believe all this talk about “everyone gets to bat/4 run/in max etc” for a Little League game. /QUOTE]
What “talk” are you talking about? This wasn’t a Little League game.
The 4 run per inning rule means an inning ends when either 3 outs have been made or 4 runs scored.
I have never seen this in use, what if the team has plated 3 runs and hits a 3 run homer. Does it just end the inning with only 4 on the scoreboard?
Jim
So, how does the “everyone gets to bat” part work?
The coaches are responsible for working all of the bench players on the squad into every game. Sometimes they are required to let every kid play at least 3 innings and get at least one at bat. Still good rules for the age group. Especially as a few coaches are jerks and would spite a child by never letting them off the bench.
Jim
Because from the way you’re talking, it sounds to me like your definition of “helped out” was making nachos in the concession stand.
On the particular issue of making a roster alphabetically, yes.
I don’t know what you’re trying to say here. If you’re not being sarcastic, then I agree with you. Little kids (much littler than 9 and 10) generally take one base at a time, even on long hits. In my experience it’s not so much an “unwritten rule” as much as it is that the kids don’t realize they can take an extra base. If the coach can get them to understand they can take an extra base or two, that’s teaching them the rules of the game and encouraging competition. If you are being sarcastic (“coaches like me”? I’m not a coach.), then telling a kid to stop at first after he hits a long shot to the fence is just blatantly ridiculous.
Maybe he didn’t pitch around the best hitter because the other coach put another good hitter behind him? We don’t know. The story doesn’t say.
I don’t know where you live, but in my town there was only one little league for 9 and 10 year olds. The traveling teams and whatnot didn’t start until at least 12, IIRC.
All in all, just another prick in the wall…
Ah ha. If this is what “everybody gets to bat” means, then I take back my statement about the stupid rule in my first post to the thread. I misunderstood, thinking it was everybody gets to bat in every inning. I’m in favor of the everyone on the team has to play in the game rule for the young kids.
[sub]…(not really) still bitter about my Dad not getting me into a game in time when we lost (or won, I don’t remember) with the 10 run mercy rule quicker than he expected…[/sub]
Yup, the inning ends when the run limit is reached, even if a homerun was hit or the ball is still in play.
“everybody bats” may also mean that subs are included in the batting order even if they are not playing in the field that inning: so the batting order may be 12 or 15 players long and doesn’t change when players are substituted in the field.
Only my understanding of the general rules. I am sure there are many exceptions around the country or up in Canada.
I do know I would rather have **Garfiled226 ** coach my son one day then **Hentor the Barbarian ** from what I have seen in this thread.
I think you mean well Hentor, but by age 9 I want my kid learning the rules of the game and playing by them, especially in a title game.
aktep: thanks for the rule clarification, I did not remember 4 run rules from when I was a kid.
Jim
Super. Were I to coach, I would prefer not to deal with the enraged parent whose superstar son wasn’t on the winning team because I didn’t opt to pitch to the worst player. Gee, I’m sure they’ll never know how to pitch around someone when they’re playing outside the rec league.
Sweep the leg, Johnny!
Sounds like most of the enraged parents were from the other team. Go figure.
How did wanting to play the game right jump me up to the category of enraged parent to you. Imagine if I had criticized you harshly instead of mildly.
You would really care that little a about a team you guided to a title game? Pitching to the Slugger would be much like throwing the game with the easy option of pitching to one of the subs. I just do not understand your reaction to this story and what I said.
Jim
I have some knowledge about coaching in leagues similar to this from my husband who used to be a coach. He coached little league for 9/10 and softball for teenagers.
In general, it is the practice of these leagues to NOT intentionally walk players because it defeats the purpose of the everyone bats rule.
For example, 1 year my hubby’s team was playing in a championship tournament. In this case, everyone bats, but it was a coed league and rules required boy/girl/boy/girl. 1 team, knowing that in general, girls perform worse at the plate than boys, played the whole tournament by walking the boy and pitching to the girl. Even though a few runs were scored when a girl did get a hit, they overwhelmingly gained an advantage. It was within the rules, but was widely criticized. Hubby faced them in the final game and lost. The girls felt really dejected on his team and there was a lot of parental frustration. The umpires were even upset. So much so, that they changed the rules next year. If a boy walked, intentionally or not, the next batter automatically walked (actually they had the option of walking or hitting).
In little league, it was similar. There is really no way to enforce a “no intentional walk rule” because you can always mask a walk by just pitching poorly. However, except on the finest teams (handpicked for talent), there were always at least 5 or 6 kids (25-30%) that just were not good hitters. A coach, theoretically, could walk all the other kids, and target the worst hitters, thereby using a similar strategy as espoused in the previous story, and likely win a lot of games. This is why the practice is not expressly forbidden, but highly discouraged.
In this case, in the absence of a complete set of facts, it is likely the one coach decided to intentionally walk this one player because of the situation. Championship game, last inning, one out etc… If this was the only intentional walk he used, then he was very selective about when to use it and did so to win, as he stated. Although it does not rise to the overall pattern of subjugating the spirit of the rules to win in a systematic manner, it still reeks of the same poor tactics that take a game, designed to be fun, and turn it into a pure competition.
This is another example of competition overshadowing fun.
In the coaches defense, the cancer survivior story, IMHO, is an over emphasized plea for sympathy and sensationalizes the decision. There are many kids who cannot hit well for various reasons, and the fact that this child had cancer is irrelevant to the story. I assure you, a coach could have figured out the good and bad hitters by the last inning and could have used this same strategy if the child was simply not a good hitter, and not just a cancer survivor.
In sum, the coaches decision was questionable, but the use of the cancer survivor story simply oversensationalizes this situation and really should not be considered when evaluating whether or not a person agrees with his decision. Rather, one should only ask themselves, was it wrong to intentionally walk a good hitter to get a bad hitter up in a pressure situation?
I asked hubby what he would have done (not adding the cancer into the story, but simply stating facts: good hitter/ bad hitter, situation, league rules and game scenario), he thought for a bit and said, “I’d pitch to the good hitter, but I would have told the pitcher to throw around the hitters strengths, if he walked, he walked, but to target a weaker hitter is bad sportsmanship at that level, regardless of the game situation, championship be damned”.
While I feel that you’ve summed up the crux of things here, I still feel a need to add my two cents and flog a few dead horses.
On the “That coach is a jerk” side…
-I played baseball from age 8 through high school. I’m not sure I can remember any intentional walks none the less ones called during a game invloving nine year olds. Of course its a common tactic in higher leagues but for some reason it just feels so out of place.
-I believe the winning manager was quoted as stating that he was unaware of Romney’s condition, but in an article on cnnsi.com Romney’s mother is quoted as saying the coach that recommended the intentional walk had previously coached Romney in basketball.
**Farley and his assistant coach, Shaun Farr, who recommended the walk, say they didn’t know Romney was a cancer survivor. “And even if I had,” insists Farr, “I’d have done the same thing. It’s just good baseball strategy.”
Romney’s mom, Elaine, thinks Farr knew. “Romney’s cancer was in the paper when he met with President Bush,” she says. That was thanks to the Make-A-Wish people. “And [Farr] coached Romney in basketball. I tell all his coaches about his condition.” **
On the other side of the coin… (Forgive the dead horses please)
-While the league is being reported as non-competitive I would be willing to bet that every kid on each team wanted to win as much as they wanted to have a good time. They’re keeping score, it was a championship game, etc… I know that at age nine I wanted to win every game my team played and that I was dissappointed each and every time we didn’t.
-If anyone is able to clarify it I would like to know the specifics of the “Everybody bats” rule. Limiting things to 4 runs an inning seems self explanitory, but I’m unfamiliar with the former rule. The only comparable rule that I remember from my youth was a “9th batter rule” which stated that a team could only send nine batters to the plate in an inning. The ninth batter basically ran around the bases (assuming they made contact) until they scored or were put out. Perhaps we also employed a 10 run mercy rule but I can’t recall it clearly. While typing this out I’ve realized that I should probably admit that at the time I never though of the ninth batter rule as being unfair or in anyway detremental to the game. While I definately wanted to win each game I still had fun regardless.
My curiosity about the rule stating that everyone gets to bat is tied to some baseball strategy that has been mentioned before. While there is certainly something to be said for playing just for the sake of having fun - what manager sets up his batting order like the manager of the losing team? Was it the case that the manager had to bat Romney in that spot as a substitute in the bottom of the last inning? If not it sorta kinda maybe stinks of either an underhanded ploy or a basic lack of knowledge about the game. You don’t bat Mario Mendoza behind Willie Stargell. (But if you’re the 1979 Mariners you do let him start cause you’re a god awful team anyway.)
-Lastly, while I can understand the kid’s parents being upset about this I can’t help but think that this incident getting press the way it has is the polar opposite of what the child wants. Beyond Romney’s oft cited quote regarding practicing more for next year - hasn’t it been stated a million times that people with disabilities (For lack of a better word, I guess) want to be treated just like everyone else? Surely I’m projecting here but I can’t help but think that the boy would prefer that this had been a non issue. He was just a kid that struck out to end a baseball game and that happens countless times every summer.
Hmmm. I’m not all that decisive here. Sorry for the length, but I guess I see parts of both sides. The baseball fan in me just sees a case of common strategy. (Note that it certainly doesn’t always work.) On the other hand. he softy in me can’t get over the feeling that the manager/coach that called for the walk were a bit classless.
Right or wrong I can definately say that I wish Romney had drilled a single up the middle. Stories like this are so much better.
How about a manager whose focus is not on winning or losing, and who doesn’t want to pick out who is better than others, so he gets a list of players at the beginning of the season and plays them exactly in that order. If most everybody in the league plays honorably and doesn’t engage in stuff like intentional walks, it’s a non-issue.
It seems that people who can’t get past the need for competition have a hard time envisioning setting up a line-up without an eye for competition. However, it’s fairly simple to understand if you start out with the premise that you don’t have to win. It was often the case for teams my sons were on. Most of the time, they rotated the list (keeping the same order), so that a particular child wasn’t always at the bottom of the line up.
I’m sure he wants to be treated like everyone else. But he wasn’t. He was singled out for his inability to hit and ended up making the last out in the championship game.
Although not as stirring as the fantasy of Romney drilling a shot up the middle for the game winning RBI, we did have a nice experience of there being some justice in the world two years ago. In the league my older son was playing in, there was one team whose manager was noted for being a really good guy. He made sure everyone got to play every position. (Some coaches played the best players in key positions every inning of every game. My son’s coach played his own sons at first and third most every game, and two other boys at second and short.) He rotated the lineup without regard to who was the best hitter. He made sure everyone had an opportunity and had fun. And you know what - they won the league championship.