Kids killing Kids

[NotMrKnowItAll]

I was hoping someone else would post this as I am a lousy OP.

Here’s a Dallas Morning New(free registration req) story about a thirteen year old who was killed outside his school here in Dallas. A less detailed, but no registration required story in the Houston Chronicle is here.

My wife noticed several helicopters circling our neighborhood. I saw two, and thought I saw smoke. Smoke coming from the vicinity of my friends house up the street. We loaded up in the car and headed up the road. My mind was filled with worry about them and their pets(especially Sammy, the deaf almost blind dog). Their house was fine. The helicopters were making ellipical orbits, like planets, around something to the east of us. So I headed that way. It was the middle school less than a mile from my house. Lots of police cars, all the news vans were there; tall microwave masts erect. I saw a policeman leaving the school with bright green gloves on and a bag of something in his hand.

We headed home, the next door neighbor called, told us about a stabbing at the school and that the sixteen year old suspect was loose in the neighborhood. I set out the hounds(110lb, 80lb, and 18lb of fury) in the back yard and locked the doors(The dogs came in for the night a little later). My son wanted to visit the girl next door, so I walked him over, my eyes peeled for anything. Later in the evening I found out that Jose Lopez, 13, died of his wounds. There seems to no motive, just to kill I guess. He just called the kid over and cut him. Reading today, I find out what a sweet, nice kid Jose was: Most of the middle school was crying over this.

I run by that school most every day. I run by Thomas Jefferson High School, where the murderer probably went to school as well. Ironically, I feel the safest there, as the kids are friendly, and there’s no cars trying to run me down. Once this kid jogged along with me asking me how long I had been running, why I run, did I run in High School, and stuff like that.

Today, when I jogged by, I saw a mass of kids on the playground. They weren’t playing. They were in groups from pairs to masses of twenty or more. Kids dealing with the brutal murder of a classmate.

[Boo_Boo_Foo]

It’s a sad world, isn’t it? One more young life taken away senselessly - never to reach fulfillment.

You have my empathy my friend.

Man’s inhumanity to man seems to be an endless, sad story it would appear.

Is there a solution? Hmmmm… I’ve noticed that teenagers who find a sport which they can excel in, regardless of the sport, well they seem to be the ones who stay cool (whatever that means). What I’m driving at here is that the teenage years are a bitch… lots of peer pressure and all sorts of negative thoughts etc (as you doubtless know). It seems a sporting persuit (or anything which acts as a distraction from the addictive nature of hanging out in the 'hood) well… it seems to be “somewhat” of safety-net.

[Blonde]

Very sad - that would have been our children’s middle school, if we hadn’t moved north to the Plano area. We lived a few miles from that school, for 3 1/2 years, before figuring out that the cost of private schools for our 2 children would run around $200,000 just to get them through high school. So - one year ago we packed it up and headed North.

The school borders a very wealthy area - but it’s surrounded to the south and west by poor neighborhoods. The Dallas Independent School District is in dire straights, and violence of this nature is commonplace - although it doesn’t often end with the death of a youth. It’s beyond horrible to contemplate this sort of tragedy. The only good news is that the police do have a suspect in custody.

[lavenderviolet]

That is quite tragic. I graduated high school a few months after Columbine, so the school violence issue didn’t really get much publicity until right as I was leaving. It is hard to believe that kids can be so violent. I never felt unsafe in school.
I don’t know what the answer is, except for adults (not just parents - but teachers and mentors) to try to be more involved in the kids’ lives and try to provide positive role models.

[Rilchiam]

@Boo Boo Foo

Is there a solution? Hmmmm… I’ve noticed that teenagers who find a sport which they can excel in, regardless of the sport, well they seem to be the ones who stay cool (whatever that means). What I’m driving at here is that the teenage years are a bitch… lots of peer pressure and all sorts of negative thoughts etc (as you doubtless know). It seems a sporting persuit (or anything which acts as a distraction from the addictive nature of hanging out in the 'hood) well… it seems to be “somewhat” of safety-net.

Are you kidding me?! You think kids who do sports never exhibit “inhumanity”? They do: plenty of them, and plenty of it. They just do it in packs.

You do have a point about teens needing a “distraction”. But sports are not the only “distraction”, and they are not for everyone. Fact is, if a kid’s not athletically gifted, but goes out for a sport anyway and performs miserably, they’ve just made themselves into a huge target. There’s a lot of culling that goes on within sports. And if a kid’s already in a situation where gym class is hell for hir, I wouldn’t suggest seeking out more of the same.

Disclaimer: I know that not all bullies are jocks, and that not all jocks are bullies. I’m just sick of people who always start chanting “sportssportssportssportssportssportssportssports” whenever there’s an incident like the one in the OP. Ever hear of a kid going off because he didn’t make the team, for instance?

[Rilchiam]

Subscribing…

[Metacom]

@Rilchiam

You do have a point about teens needing a “distraction”. But sports are not the only “distraction”, and they are not for everyone.

They’re the only distraction that prominently features physical activity, which improves appearance, physical health, mental health, and is an important part of a well-rounded life.

Fact is, if a kid’s not athletically gifted, but goes out for a sport anyway and performs miserably, they’ve just made themselves into a huge target. There’s a lot of culling that goes on within sports.

“Sports” does not mean “varsity sports team.” You can have less competitive “anyone who wants to play can play” teams as well as sports that are more oriented towards individual performance.

And if a kid’s already in a situation where gym class is hell for hir, I wouldn’t suggest seeking out more of the same.

Participating in gym isn’t even close to consistently participating in a sport: the activities vary, so you don’t really have an oppurtunity to watch your skills and fitness grow; it’s more oriented towards “fitness” instead of “physical play for fun;” and you can’t choose the activity and the people you associate with.

And if a kid’s in a situation where participating in a sport of their choosing is hell, pick another. If they’re all hell, tough. The notion that enjoyability should have a major influence on school curriculums is laughable.

Disclaimer: I know that not all bullies are jocks, and that not all jocks are bullies. I’m just sick of people who always start chanting “sportssportssportssportssportssportssportssports” whenever there’s an incident like the one in the OP.

And I’m sick of people who think “Jock” means “someone who participates in sports.”

A sport, be it a softball team, running, walking, swimming , cycling, etc. should be a part of every kids life (every adults too, IMHO). That doesn’t mean they should build their entire identity around their physical prowess–then they’d be a jock. It’s all about being well rounded.

[Rilchiam]

@Metacom

They’re the only distraction that prominently features physical activity, which improves appearance, physical health, mental health, and is an important part of a well-rounded life.

Fair enough. But let’s not count out other outlets such as art and music, huh?

“Sports” does not mean “varsity sports team.” You can have less competitive “anyone who wants to play can play” teams as well as sports that are more oriented towards individual performance.

But are there such teams? Teams, and, more to the point, parents of kids who join such teams, that don’t get subjugated to the idea of “win win win win”?

All I know is this: I started playing the violin when I was six. Pretty darn good at it, too. When I was in grade 3, I was proficient enough to join a children’s orchestra. I performed well. I made friends through this. I loved music, and I loved expressing myself that way.

Then, during the winter of my fourth-grade year, my mom got a bug up her ass about sports. I have two sets of cousins—the children of one of her sisters and of one of her brothers—who were all accomplished athletes. Medalled, plaqued, record-setting and -breaking, the whole nine. So my mom makes the announcement that “I’m tired of hearing “Bob” and “Margaret” brag about their kids’ sports. I want to brag about YOUR sports. You’re joining the track team.”

Huh? Couldn’t she brag about my musical accomplishments? I was first-chair violin. Did that mean nothing?

Apparently so. In the spring, I was outfitted in shorts and t-shirt, and found myself standing on a cinder track, surrounded by bigger and in some cases, older girls who all had the same agenda: “Let’s See How Much Rilchie Can Take.” Physical pushing-around whenever the coach wasn’t looking (which was a lot of the time) and verbal pushing-around at all times.

Well, I managed to construct a thin veneer of indifference. Didn’t stop them, of course, but what else could I do? I found out on day one that the coach was never going to intervene, even if I was bleeding (literally), and my mom didn’t want to hear it either. She wanted a jock, and god damnit, she was going to get a jock. She’d rather have a depressed runner (who BTW wasn’t achieving much on the track) than a happy first-chair violinist.

I did try to continue with the violin, but without a teacher, and without the incentive of performing with the orchestra, my enthusiasm dried up. I wasn’t one of those David Helfgottesque obsessed kids that if you put me on a desert island, I would build an instrument. There seemed to be no point in continuing to play, so I stopped.

Funny thing happened towards the end of the school year. The other girls approached me, suggesting that we put all that crap behind us. Joy!!! Throughout the summer, I began to thrive, ultimately getting a blue ribbon for the fifty-yard dash. Happy ending, right?

Wrong. In the fall, I came back to the athletic field and met the same hostility, from the same people. Why? Someone put them up to apologizing? Very possible: look how much I improved afterwards. But I’ll never know. Three practices later, I told my mom to forget it. She had her blue ribbon; that would have to do.

But the damage was done. I encountered the same people, the ones who were my age, again in middle school. Let’s just draw a veil over my experiences there.

And the funny thing was, this was one of those teams where they take everybody who shows up. Just MHO, and I’m sure I’ll be in the minority here, but I don’t think that’s a good policy. Tryouts should be the first step, to weed out the people who don’t want to be there badly enough, or can’t contribute enough to the team even if they do want to be there. Sound cruel? Not as much as letting weak links such as myself bring down the team.

Participating in gym isn’t even close to consistently participating in a sport: the activities vary, so you don’t really have an oppurtunity to watch your skills and fitness grow; it’s more oriented towards “fitness” instead of “physical play for fun;” and you can’t choose the activity and the people you associate with.

And if a kid’s in a situation where participating in a sport of their choosing is hell, pick another. If they’re all hell, tough. The notion that enjoyability should have a major influence on school curriculums is laughable.

I wasn’t talking about enjoyability or school curriculums. I was talking about the “hell is other children” that I experienced. It just didn’t sound like a good idea for someone who’s already been marked as athletically useless to seek out an activity that might well involve the same people who’ve been yelling “spaz” at hir during gym class.

And I’m sick of people who think “Jock” means “someone who participates in sports.”

A sport, be it a softball team, running, walking, swimming , cycling, etc. should be a part of every kids life (every adults too, IMHO). That doesn’t mean they should build their entire identity around their physical prowess–then they’d be a jock. It’s all about being well rounded.

I’d apologize, but remember, it was Boo Foo Foo’s post I was responding to. It does sound like a good idea for kids to get to “watch their skills and fitness grow”. I only hope that they can get the chance, without strings, that I only got under the duress of a forced apology.

[doreen]

And the funny thing was, this was one of those teams where they take everybody who shows up. Just MHO, and I’m sure I’ll be in the minority here, but I don’t think that’s a good policy. Tryouts should be the first step, to weed out the people who don’t want to be there badly enough, or can’t contribute enough to the team even if they do want to be there. Sound cruel? Not as much as letting weak links such as myself bring down the team.

Or perhaps those parents , children and coaches who can’t handle an “everyone plays” team should find a more competitive team. They do exist.

[Rilchiam]

@doreen

Or perhaps those parents , children and coaches who can’t handle an “everyone plays” team should find a more competitive team. They do exist.

I think you missed my point, doreen. If I’d had to try out, I would have been spared all of what I described above.

I think I understand what you’re saying, though: you think everyone should get a chance, right? And people who are only in it to win should look elsewhere, away from the “everyone plays” teams? That’s good too, but jeez, how far do you take that? You have to have some incentive. When I was in the orchestra, we were competing among ourselves for the weekly prize, and against other towns’ orchestras for…whatever the deal was, I don’t remember. A plaque? The point is, we were always competing for something. Without that, we basically would have just been “jamming”, and we were too young for that ;)!

I understand perfectly that you don’t want to lose sight of “it’s how you play the game”. But I didn’t want to be on that track team at all. And I had nothing to offer them in the way of athletic skill. Performance at tryouts proves how much you want to put into your membership. And I still think it was a waste of time, effort and self-esteem for my mom to push me to “achieve something” when I already was achieving something. There was nothing wrong with my life until she got this fixation. There was a hell of a lot wrong with it afterwards.

[Metacom]

@Rilchiam

Fair enough. But let’s not count out other outlets such as art and music, huh?

Of course not. I said sports shouldn’t be the sole thing to build an identity around, and it was important to be well-rounded. Both of those are important.

(snipped by Metacom: tale of Rilchiam’s mother stopping his violin lessons because she wanted Rilchiam to have the same braggable proficiencies as her friends kids)

That was certainly a sad tale (and as an ex-bassoonist, I can sympathize), but that was a story about your mom being a jerk and pushing you into a social and athletic situation you didn’t like for the purpose of stroking her own ego–she could just as easily have pushed you into a non-athletic activity you didn’t like.

And the funny thing was, this was one of those teams where they take everybody who shows up. Just MHO, and I’m sure I’ll be in the minority here, but I don’t think that’s a good policy. Tryouts should be the first step, to weed out the people who don’t want to be there badly enough, or can’t contribute enough to the team even if they do want to be there. Sound cruel? Not as much as letting weak links such as myself bring down the team.

“Take everyone who shows up” doesn’t necessarily mean less competitive. There do exist intramural sports programs and clubs where the point is having fun and getting some excersize, not cuthroat competition. Try-outs would be innapropriate for those groups.

I wasn’t talking about enjoyability or school curriculums. I was talking about the “hell is other children” that I experienced. It just didn’t sound like a good idea for someone who’s already been marked as athletically useless to seek out an activity that might well involve the same people who’ve been yelling “spaz” at hir during gym class.

Ideally, there’d be enough options available (and if your broaden your search from the school to the community as a whole, there likely are!) for people to find an activity that’s both physically and socially enjoyable.

[Rilchiam]

@Metacom

Of course not. I said sports shouldn’t be the sole thing to build an identity around, and it was important to be well-rounded. Both of those are important.

Okay then!

That was certainly a sad tale (and as an ex-bassoonist, I can sympathize), but that was a story about your mom being a jerk and pushing you into a social and athletic situation you didn’t like for the purpose of stroking her own ego–she could just as easily have pushed you into a non-athletic activity you didn’t like.

:::ahem::: I’m a her. Wanna see? And it was her siblings’ kids, not her friends’ kids. And yeah, a parent could do just as much harm by making a kid quit a sport s/he loves for the sake of some activity they don’t like/aren’t suited for. But I just had to get that out, because that’s why I have such a severe mental block about sports. Nobody pushed me around in orchestra, dude!

“Take everyone who shows up” doesn’t necessarily mean less competitive. There do exist intramural sports programs and clubs where the point is having fun and getting some excersize, not cuthroat competition. Try-outs would be innapropriate for those groups.

Ideally, there’d be enough options available (and if your broaden your search from the school to the community as a whole, there likely are!) for people to find an activity that’s both physically and socially enjoyable.

Okay. I’ll admit now that yes, sports can be physically and socially enjoyable. But, and I cannot stress this enough, adults have to guide the kids, if there’s anything positive to be gotten out of the experience. There should be no leaving a group of 10-12y/os unsupervised for an hour at a time. (I’m not kidding.)

Even if it hadn’t been, for me, what it was, I’m still surprised we got anything done. It was pretty much a typical late-70s/early 80s scenario: parents drop the kids off to be left to their own devices by so-called coaches, and that’s “involvement”. Hey, they’re at the athletic field, so they’re staying out of trouble, right? And who wants to be around a bunch of teenyboppers any more than you absolutely have to? Then they wondered why we were such punks as full-fledged teens. :rolleyes:

[Rilchiam]

And listen: while I still have my axe out, let me grind it a bit more, 'kay?

Disclaimer: What I’m about to say is not aimed at anyone, except certain members of my family; I’m extending the benefit of the doubt to any Dopers or lurkers reading this.

I never went back to the violin. However, I did eventually start channeling my energy into writing. But that got me no love either. My mom, having refined her attitude, would send to her siblings copies of the school lit mag in which my stuff was printed. And sometimes other stuff, like my highest-grade-in-the-class Antigone essay.

Destined, of course, never to be read, because they “didn’t have the time”. Even though I spent plenty of time going to football games and wrestling and gymnastics meets. “But that’s a different kind of time,” my mom hastened to reassure me. “I mean, no one’s going to have a tailgate party before they read an essay!”

Now, I know I wasn’t the only kid who ever fell into this excluded middle. Yes, I understand full well that no one’s ever going to pack a stadium to watch a kid airbrush a painting. But for so many people, if an activity doesn’t merit that caliber of attention, it gets no attention. And that shouldn’t be. I’m not talking about getting a tailgate party together; I’m talking about telling your kid, your niece/nephew, your grandkid, your friend’s kid, “You done good and I’m proud of you.”

But all the fawning (ISTM) is reserved for athletes. And that is not cool. If the football player gets a steak dinner when he wins a trophy, then the writer should get a steak dinner when she wins something. Well, I like steak, anyway. But if the writer/artist/musician wants something else for dinner, then take them out for that. Just give them something, for potato’s sake.

Well, I gave up on my aunts and uncles a long time ago, so forget that. But my own parents! They never gave me any kind of tangible pat on the back. And it never occurred to me to question that!

God damn it, I thought I had all this buried…

[Metacom]

@Rilchiam

:::ahem::: I’m a her. Wanna see?

My apologies–I’ll take your word for it.

But I just had to get that out, because that’s why I have such a severe mental block about sports. Nobody pushed me around in orchestra, dude!

Understandable. I was in a similiar situation as a kid–baseball was a big part of my dad’s childhood, and he wanted it to be a big part of mine, despite the fact that I was the kind of baseball player who’d get sentenced to right field the entire season and would be playing with the turf, clover, etc. the one time someone actually hit a ball near me.

Fortunately, I decided to shape up in college and joined joined the cycling team (it was a non-varsity sport, so it was a “take all comers” “do it for the fun” team). When I started they had to push me (literally) up some hills. When I left, I’d lost 55 pounds or so, was in great shape, and was a hell of a lot more self-confident. Now, I couldn’t imagine not having some kind of regular activity. I really, really wish I’d taken an oppurtunity like that years earlier.

Okay. I’ll admit now that yes, sports can be physically and socially enjoyable. But, and I cannot stress this enough, adults have to guide the kids, if there’s anything positive to be gotten out of the experience. There should be no leaving a group of 10-12y/os unsupervised for an hour at a time. (I’m not kidding.)

Absolutely–and the adults need to understand and enforce good sportsmanship. This admittedly probabbly doesn’t happen often enough, though.

[rivulus]

Joining in on the sports hijack…

I have to say I agree that sports (read organized physical activity) are important for kids. I’m totally into being physically healthy. But I wish that (in my case, growing up) there had been more options for not only non-competitive, but outright non-“team” sports. Even activities that could have been individual sports were turned into team sports. For example, why must something like track be turned into a “team” effort? Improving my own time with practice could have been quite rewarding. But, no, our efforts in meets had to be added up to a team score, which put a lot of pressure on a relatively ungifted scrawny youngster like me.

Now, I understand the idea of “sportsmanship.” But working together can be learned in other environments, such as an orchestra, band or theater group. Competition can be a part of chess playing, spelling bees, you name it. Sportsmanship can be learned outside of “sports.”

Fortunately my parents got my brother and me into activities like cross-country skiing, kayaking and biking, mostly done with the family or with friends. Utterly non-competitive in those circumstances (unless you count racing my brother down the hill) but physically great. And on the competitive side, I did band and choir competitions. (Go team!)

Anyway, just had to get that off my chest.

[DeaganTheWolf]

@Metacom

They’re the only distraction that prominently features physical activity, which improves appearance, physical health, mental health, and is an important part of a well-rounded life.

Really, this isn’t true. Any well taught painting or sculpting class features a good level of physical activity; that is at minimum in the cardio range. Working on a potter’s wheel is an excellent resistence excersise, and larger works must be moved, materials carried and cut, standing and walked around while working, using resistence machines.
Though not available in highschool, metal casting is an extremely physically intensive art form. Shop class might be a good alternative. I’d also reccomend physical activities such as martial arts, non competitive crew, weightlifting etc. Team oriented sports are NOT the only outlet.

[doreen]

I think I understand what you’re saying, though: you think everyone should get a chance, right? And people who are only in it to win should look elsewhere, away from the “everyone plays” teams? That’s good too, but jeez, how far do you take that? You have to have some incentive. When I was in the orchestra, we were competing among ourselves for the weekly prize, and against other towns’ orchestras for…whatever the deal was, I don’t remember. A plaque? The point is, we were always competing for something. Without that, we basically would have just been “jamming”, and we were too young for that !

Wanting to win is one thing, being hostile to the less skilled on your team is quite another. My son plays on an “everybody plays” little league team ( and then goes on to play on their post-season travel team). Every kid on that team wants to win every game. But the better players don’t blame the less skilled for a loss- they’re more likely to blame themselves. I give the coaches and officials credit for that- they have no problem ejecting badly behaving parents from the park, or cutting the playing time of those who believe their athletic ability entitles them to be mean.

Your mother shouldn’t have pushed you into doing something you were uninterested in while ignoring your interest- but that’s a fault on your mother’s part, not on the part of the team that took anyone who wanted to join. Without “everyone plays” leagues, where would the kids who really love playing baseball but aren’t very good at it go?

[Metacom]

@DeaganTheWolf

Really, this isn’t true. Any well taught painting or sculpting class features a good level of physical activity; that is at minimum in the cardio range. Working on a potter’s wheel is an excellent resistence excersise, and larger works must be moved, materials carried and cut, standing and walked around while working, using resistence machines.
Though not available in highschool, metal casting is an extremely physically intensive art form. Shop class might be a good alternative. I’d also reccomend physical activities such as martial arts, non competitive crew, weightlifting etc. Team oriented sports are NOT the only outlet.

I know this is the pit and all, but: Cite? I REALLY, REALLY doubt that any of the activities you’ve listed raise the heartrate of someone in reasonable physical shape into the aerobic range for extended periods of time (say, more then 20 minutes) on a daily basis. Unless you’re quarrying your own marble using 18th century techniques or dimensioning your lumber from logs using only hand tools or something.

[Rilchiam]

@doreen

Wanting to win is one thing, being hostile to the less skilled on your team is quite another. My son plays on an “everybody plays” little league team ( and then goes on to play on their post-season travel team). Every kid on that team wants to win every game. But the better players don’t blame the less skilled for a loss- they’re more likely to blame themselves. I give the coaches and officials credit for that- they have no problem ejecting badly behaving parents from the park, or cutting the playing time of those who believe their athletic ability entitles them to be mean.

Well, that is good. Seriously, I can’t tell you how glad I am to hear that.

Your mother shouldn’t have pushed you into doing something you were uninterested in while ignoring your interest- but that’s a fault on your mother’s part, not on the part of the team that took anyone who wanted to join. Without “everyone plays” leagues, where would the kids who really love playing baseball but aren’t very good at it go?

Yeah, I know. I just needed a little Pit therapy; I’m all good now!