blame the kids, not the athletics

The BBQ Pit
1

In the thread below, there is an awful lot of blaming (or at least bashing) of school athletics. Kids that will do that will do it regardless if they play football. I personally believe competition is a good character builder and one does not have to do with the other. Besides, there are worse ways to spend Friday night than at a high school football game.

Whatever happened to the time when kids and communities took pride in their schools and actually participated in community activities?

Sure there are a lot of problems that need to be addressed but don’t cut off the nose to spite the face.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=211938

2

I am not really getting the impression that the thread in question is going that way. Most of it seems to have been hijacked by AuderyK and gender specific insults about the judge.

I don’t recall anyone saying that school athletics are bad. They are speaking against the alleged boycott of the cancellation of the footbal team, which IMHO, the whole team must share the blame. I am aware of the “code of the schoolyard,” which prohibits snithching. There were things I saw in school that I kept quiet about, that if I saw now may get a 911 call. Nothing as bad as putting a stick up someone’s ass.

Competition does build character. Many “kids and communities [do take]pride in their schools and actually [participate] in community activities.”

I did not interpret any responses as countering that. I did see responses that those who shove broomsticks up others asses againt their will should not be granted leniency as a result of participation in athletics.

3

Well, there this…

[miller]I blame sports.
[/quote]

or
[DreadCthulhu]I don’t think schools should have sports in the first place. The point of school is to learn things; football is just a distraction.
[/quote]

or
[telcontarI don’t think schools should have sports in the first place. The point of school is to learn things; football is just a distraction.
[/quote]

or
[OpalCat]And I’m in the camp, by the way, that says that HS sports would be better done away with.
[/quote]

No offense to these folks in particular, but this seems to be on the minds of more than a few people.

4

There have been a few similar events at private schools here in Australia. None have had anything to do with sports teams, just older kids bullying younger kids. Maybe to put an end to it we should just do away with schooling.

5

Do away with high school sports?

Bullshit! :mad:

6

If you ask me, the problem isn’t high school sports, it’s the parents and coaches who allow inappropriate and borderline inappropriate activities to occur because ‘boys (or girls) will be boys (or girls),’ or because it’s ‘character building’ or ‘team building.’

One of the most positive experiences of my high school career was my participation in sports, and there was nothing remotely close to what I hear often goes on between team members, and we all still managed to get character and have fun.

7

You know what? I like sports just fine. Even organized sports. My kids participate in organized sports. That doesn’t mean that I think schools should sponsor teams.I can’t think of one benefit to sports participation that would not also apply to participation in leagues not associated with a school, and there are certain problems that are specific to school teams- undeserved passing grades to allow an athlete to be eligible , or students protesting the cancellation of a season for example. I’m not saying the blame isn’t ultimately on parents, coaches, alumni and perhaps the community in some places. But a school has no reason to pass an athlete so he can play in an independent league for two reasons- most independent leagues don’t have academic standards to begin with, and even if they did, why would a school care if an unassociated team’s star player was ineligible to play.And I can’t imagine a big protest at school over cancelling a team’s season if the team wasn’t associated with the school.

There are worse ways to spend a Friday nght than at a high school football game, but spending Friday night at an independent league football game is not one of them .

8

I wonder how many of the people who say sports don’t belong in school are the same people who complain that kids these days don’t do anything but sit on their duffs.

You can learn plenty of things from sports–teamwork, discipline, physical fitness, social skills, you name it.

9

I hear this argument against sports in school all the time. I wonder how mnay athletes are passed in classes so that they can play, versus how many are deemed unable to play because they didn’t perform well enough in school. Something tells me it’s the latter.

I favor sports in schools because I think it keeps a lot of kids coming back to school, and going on to college, where otherwise they might not have. I would be even more in favor of free college for everyone, but that’s not going to happen.

Besides the fact that sports are good for something, like building character, teamwork, etc… I would definitely like to see them less emphasised than they are now, where all sch9ool funds in omeplaces go to the sports teams, but I think that’s a problem with administrationl, not the sports being there in the first place.

10

I don’t know which happens more often, but the former surely does happen. I suspect the frequency rather depends on the area- there are apparently some places in the US where the entire town turns out for the high school games, and everyone knows the players. I would imagine in those places there is a lot of pressure on the school to have a winning team, a pressure which may not exist in other places. I’m really not sure I understand the connection between sports and athletics. It seems no more fair to me to deny a gifted athlete the chance to compete based on poor grades than it does to give that athlete an undeserved passing grade to keep athletic eligibility, but both problems come directly from the association of sports and schools.

11

I’ve got no quarrel with organized sports, my kids play soccer and volleyball.
But I think what schools need is less emphasis on capital intensive, male-only sports (e.g., football) and more on athletics that contribute to lifelong fitness. How many adults play football? Not many. How many participate in soccer, volleyball, areobics, softball, etc? More, and it could be an even larger number if these activities received greater emphasis (read: money) in school systems.
Good read: Friday Night Lights about the Permian (TX) HS football program.

12

See, I don’t really see the benefits of school sports. I’m just going on my personal experience here; I’ve not made any sort of comprehensive study of the subject, and I don’t expect anyone to take what I have to say here as anything more than purely anecdotal.

Sports don’t encourage teamwork, they encourage exclusivity and elitism. They don’t build character: the worst bullies in every school I ever went to were always the jocks. They’re a drain on school budgets that are already stretched past the breaking point. And, in my experience, they tend to foster dishonest academic practices on behalf of school administrators, desperate not to lose their star quarterback because he can’t read above a fifth grade level.

Now, I admit I’m biased against sports in general. Don’t like 'em, and am getting heartily sick of the way they get fetishized in American society. But most of all, I’m sick of how, when some twisted fuck gets his dad’s rifle and starts picking off motorists from a freeway overpass, people call for a ban on video games because the kid owns a Playstation, but when a knuckle-dragging neanderthal sexually violates another student as part of a football “hazing” ritual, no one ever calls for a ban on school sports. GTAIII teaches kids violence, but the teacher out on the field encouraging students how to body block each other as hard as possible isn’t teaching violence? Riiiiight.

13

I’ve been involved in school athletics as a player, and as a coach for a combined total of 15 years. I would have no problem with school athletics going the way of the dodo.

There are some pretty good things about school athletic programs. I personally benefited, and I’ve coached some great kids. But the sum total of my experience leads me to believe the bad outweighs the good. A few things to consider:

School sponsored sports are inherently elitist
Unless an athletic program is backed up by a good intramural program (which they rarely are) kids who are cut from teams simply cannot play. They can of course join community based teams and such, but they’re out of luck as far as school sponsored teams.

Sports often does build character - for those who make the team. In large schools, most are cut. I personally have had up to 80 kids try out for a team with 15 spots (volleyball). Everybody else was turned loose, and this broke my heart.

Athletic budgets are highly disparate
Have you any idea what it takes to field a football team? An athletic director I know once told me, “It’s like I’m watching my whole budget run up and down the field.”

Football gets lots of attention, and the non-marquee sports sometimes get the shaft. Recall the above situation where 80 kids came out for my sport - I could probably field four or five volleyball squads, or build an intramural program for the whole school district for what it costs to equip and field a football team. That’s not right.

A swim team is expensive too, but you get to use the pool for other stuff too.

Coaches and parents are screwing up
As has already been mentioned in this thread, coaches are often accepting very poor behavior from their athletes. Parents get out of control too. Although neither of these issues are confined to school athletics, they are there in force.

I became dismayed at even some strategies employed by coaches in one of my sports. In volleyball I ran into a fair number of coaches who didn’t even teach the game properly. They had their kids just smack the ball over in the hopes that the other team would screw up as they attempted to use the proper bump-set-spike techniques. This often worked, and served to water down the level of play, which I felt defeated the whole point of what we were doing.

My suggestions

  • Change to a less formal system with the intent of giving every kid a chance to play on a team. If sports builds character (which it can when things are done properly), then make it available to everyone.

  • I’d love to see well run intramural programs. Inter-scholastic play could be possible too - no reason why not. But this might be a less formal structure than we currently have in place. If I’m not mistaken, some of the European systems look like this.

  • Get rid of football. Too many injuries (no cite, but you can look this up on Google and get an eyeful), and too expensive. It’s just not worth it!

14

Hmmm… well, according to this:
http://www.srsd.org/search/studentprojects/2001/injury/injuries.html
there are almost twice as many injuries in basketball then there are in football.

Let me tell you a story:
I started playing organized football in 7th grade, as a tall, fat, slow kid with almost no self-esteem. I was put on the offensive line because, as one of my classmates (the quarterback, in fact) put it “you’re too fat to play anywhere else.” Tried it out, had an absolute blast. Decided to continue on into high school (most of my classmates did not). Still pretty much overweight, and not very strong, but at least I could take up space.

After my freshman year, one of the older guys on the team (I think he was a Junior at the time), pulled me aside one day and said: “You’ve got the potential to be a great player. Come lift weights and work out with me.” I started working out 5 days a week, lifting, stretching, and doing agility work. Over the next two years, I became immensely stronger, lost about 25 lbs, and a heck of a lot more confident.

At the start of my senior year of HS, I began to realize that I wanted to continue playing after that year. So I began to look into colleges where I could play (mainly NCAA D-III. No scholorships, no athletic-based financial aid of any kind). I ended up choosing one, and playing there for 4 years. Over the course of that time, I met a large amount of teammates/friends (many of whom I still keep in contact with today). Shared countless hours of practice, workouts, travel, and games. Had some experiences I could never duplicate again, including a game in McMinville, Oregon, where we won because we missed a potential game-tieing field goal. (long story, I’ll relay it if anyone wishes).

Now I live in Minnesota. I managed to get hooked up with a semi-pro football team here in the Twin Cites, and a pretty good one at that. We’re currently 8-0, with the league tournament starting this Sunday (6:05 p.m. at Augsburg College, if any of you Twin Cities Dopers want to check it out). I’ve met lots of people that I wouldn’t have otherwise, and even had the opportunity to play in a semi-pro national championship game last November near Boston.

What’s my point with all this? Without the opportunity to play football in Junior High and High School, my life would be completely different then it is today. Who knows where I’d be, or what I’d be doing.

I’ll post more of my thoughts about High School Sports (and football in general) later this evening. Right now I need to get to practice.

15

Where do you find this?

I realize that since I went to one high school, do not teach or coach, and haven’t gone looking for similar experiences that I might not know what I’m talking about. However, in my high school career I played football(Frosh, JV, Varsity), Wrestled(JV), and was on the putting and discus team for one season.

In none of those sports, and none of those years did I see someone who wasn’t cut for behavioral, disciplinary, or attendance problems. I also never saw or heard of any of my fellow students getting their grades faked, and in fact was made ineligible once during wrestling season for my grades.

In sports, most kids who don’t fit in, or aren’t good enough or in shape enough or disciplined enough will drop out of the sport on their own for the most part.

I also know of no other “hazing rituals” other than the occasional head shaving and even more rare “lights out” game.

Sam

16

May I agree with Gassendi on the need for strong intramural programs. That was MY only participation in sports while in school. And for more emphasis on sport for the sake of fitness rather than the competitive teams.

On the other subject: sure, the prime responsibility is upon individuals – kids, parents and coaches. However, an incident such as this requires that the punishment be such that those who do not engage in that behavior will turn against those who do…

17

jweb: You’re correct that basketball is a huge source of injuries too. However, it’s not as expensive to field a team as it is in football. The reason I single out football is because of the combination of excessive injury and cost.

And GaWd, lots of schools have to cut kids simply because of number of people trying out vs. number of available slots. Most, in my experience. Very small schools would be exceptions there, and sometimes the less popular sports are able to take all who apply because they get less of a turnout.

I say again: If sports are so great, let’s work on getting everybody in there. One of the reasons I got out of coaching was because I couldn’t stand having to cut kids, and then have to tell them there was no school program for them in which they could play and develop skills.

18

When I was in school, I hated everything PE or sports with a passion I can’t begin to describe. I saw jocks as alien creatures, the anathema of all I believed was important in the world.

Now I’m back in high school, as a teacher, and still don’t understand the appeal of sports. Not even a little bit. I don’t get it at all.

But I don’t have to understand them to know that they are valuble, and frankly, I’d defend them against anyone who tried to have them removed.

Not everybody’s got a great academic mind. Not everyone’s an athelete. Some–quite a few–are both, and more than a few–sad to say–are neither. We lose the ones that arn’t good at anything. Take away sports and we’d lose even more.

Sure, some kids are passed so they can play. But another signifigant portion of the players work to pass so that they can play.

19

Gassendi,
Yes, football is probably more expensive then any other sport. I can understand that. But football is also somewhat unique because it can give a wider variety of kids a chance to be on a team. Football rosters can be virtually any size. At college, we had somewhere around 120-140 kids on the team each year (my HS team was around 35, but we were a small high school), whereas the basketball team had 15-20. I can’t think of any other sport, except possibly track, where you could have a team that size and still be managable from a logistical standpoint. Yes, there are some additional up front costs in terms of equipment, but a good set of pads can last for 10-12 years easily, thereby allowing you to spread out the cost somewhat.

But the beauty of football, at least in my mind, is the huge degree of teamwork necessary to be successful, moreso then any other sport. As an offensive lineman, I have to know what the other 4 guys on the line are doing, oftentimes without being able to look at them or even give much more then a 1 or 2-word signal. I also have to know the path the running back is going to take (on a running play) or where (and if) he’s going to help block (on a pass), and where the Quarterback is going to set up for a pass. I have to be able to react to a defensive shift in a split second, and trust the the rest of my teammates will do the same, again without much in the way of a verbal cue. In most other sports (basketball, baseball/softball volleyball, track, golf, etc), one person improvising on his/her own, can make a great play. Not so in football. I can’t think of another sport that teaches and preaches teamwork at anywhere near the level that football does (in my obviously biased opinion).

20

When I was on the (female) swim team in high school, we reused the team suits from the year before. People who were there for their second year got their old suits, but newbies (like me) had to use someone else’s suit. Don’t hear of many football teams that reuse jock straps. Our football team sucked, by the way. My sophomore year, they hired a new “teacher” to be coach for the football team. He had coached a smaller school’s football team to the state playoffs. He was so abysmal at his first assignment (history) that he was shipped over to the driver’s ed department by my junior year.

Swimming was required in phys ed, and there were swimming elective classes, so I’d like to think the pool was used for other purposes.