Anyone else tired of sports in public schools?

The BBQ Pit
1

Hi all, been a while since I posted here, but now I just feel remarkably pissed and would like to vent. So I will vent.

I am a high school debate coach. I absolutely love public speaking, and I think that teaching it to high school kids empowers them to make their beliefs do something. Participating in public speaking classes when I was in high school absolutely changed my life - I had not yet discovered that I had a talent for anything, really, until I tried public speaking. I have had numerous students who are relatively average in many categories of intelligence (memorization, mathematical skills, etc.) who have come into the debate program and been ASTOUNDED at what they can do verbally. In short, it has changed lives - at least mine.

My program now has a budget of, get this, $1000. One thousand American dollars to support 20 debaters who leave town and stay in a hotel every weekend to discuss moral issues with other kids. $1000. I am absolutely devastated by this. It now costs my students’ parents approximately $120 a month in order for their child to be in debate!!!

I went from trying to empower kids to be able to vocalize their opinions to simply trying to get kids to PAY for that, and those who cannot are left behind.

The high school just spent literally MILLIONS of dollars on a new sports facility. Need I say more? MILLIONS of dollars for football and baseball, which I will grant are fun activities. But is it totally unreasonable to ask for a reasonable budget for the debate program?

Where do the priorities of schools lie these days?

Anyway, I get great comfort from knowing that at least one person read this. I apologize if it’s not a particularly stimulating issue for anyone, but I thank you for reading this far.

Good night, all!

  • Rog
2

Yes, I and others I know are sick of sports in schools. The Chicago Tribune recently wroter an editorial saying that in College nowadays, athletes were not as academically talented or qualified as other students and that the former athletes did not tend to donate to the colleges outside of the athletic departments. It said that studies have shown that the disproportionate spending on sports by academic institutions was not supported in light of how little sports really bring back to the institution.

Once upon a time, college athletes were as academically gifted as their peers. The got scholarships because they also had athletic talents, but in general, they otherwised belonged at the institution. However somewhere along the way, colleges started making exceptions for athletes and now, even if they are dumb as mud they can get into college and have a free ride. This has translated to even more spending at the highschool level for sports and a mentality that allows schools to short change all other activities and let athletes reap the benefits. This is a separate debate from PE in schools. Sports are not part of the curriculum, PE is. Facilities not needed for any class are funded and built at public expense and despite what people have claimed, the additional funds that sports bring in does not cover the expenditures.

3

Its so stupid how coaches let some kids slip behind in academics, just because THEY’RE the key to winning the COC championships. These coaches put more emphasis on the individual winning the game than the actual team.

By the by, anyone else sick of just plain old public schools? How about just school in general?

4

I absolutely agree. Sports in the schools has become a business. It sucks money out of more worthwhile educational programs, and many kids are maimed and killed in poorly supervised athletic events.
And it’s even worse in College. My local university had a fundraising campaign to construct a new arts campus, to replace several buildings that were devastated during a flood. Their $20 million goal was not met, they couldn’t even raise a hundred thousand bucks in a space of 5 years. But the local football nuts managed to raise $20million in the space of a few weeks, just to build a stupid “athletes hall of fame.” Now they’re building a new stadium, just down the street from a perfectly good stadium that rarely is filled to capacity, even when the football team doesn’t suck (which is about once every 20 years).
And I could go on and on about corporate welfare given to sports teams, they can extort money from a city to build a new stadium, under threat of leaving.
Sports is an evil thing. It has become a monster. About the only thing left for people who truly like sports is to follow something uncontaminated by the presence of money: women’s sports. None of the women in high school or college sports have a chance at a professional career, they all do it for the love of the sport. But that will change soon, with the corporations looking to capitalize on any sport they think they can sell on TV. Catch it now before it too is destroyed by money.

5

Well, IMHO, speaking from experience as a public (and private school) music teacher (and the fact that I can’t quite tell what the OP is - a general rant against sports in school or where should school priorities lie [GD, anyone?]), I’ll address the budget dilemna:
School budgets often depend on the district and the prevailing public attitude: what do the parents and people support and what are they willing to suppport? I had a damn good budget in one district (heckua high school marching band, their competitions were usually better attended than the football games), and lousy budget in another (we could get the piano turned every other year; getting the parents and the KIDS to show up for a performance was an exercise in ). Heck, I went to a high school that had a track team and no track facilities, but they did pretty darned good (except in pole vault - really bad in that) despite no cinder to run on.

Have you made the case to the school board about increasing the budget? Invite them to go to a debate. Get the kids to make the case for an increased budget in front of the school board (THAT would be a damn good test of their skills and good prep for real life!).

Have the kids brought home awards from their debates? (It took awhile to get recognition and local support, but when my high school jazz band started bringing home first and second place trophies from regional and state festivals and competitions (AND beating out the rival high school with the multi-million dollar music budget**), the school board started taking notice and increased the music department budget so we could get better instruments, bring in clinicians from the university music department, you get the idea.

Don’t know what your collegues are like, but have you enlisted their help?

Just some ideas off the top of my head while waiting for the tea to brew (yes, this is long, but I drink strong tea).

**(okay, that was a rumor in our music department, but you get the idea here)

6

Screech-Owl, excellent ideas. Believe it or not ( you are going to spit your tea when you read this ), my wife’s school district is the reverse of the national trend. They have NO football team ! The music program is supported to a fair degree. Sure, wife just got her own classroom for the first time in 6 years, but that’s not a music vs athletics issue at all.

Making the School Board attend a public debate held by your those kids is a brilliant idea. Heck, I’m putting you up for Poster of the Year for it. :smiley:

Cartooniverse

7

[gameshow whisper]
And today’s Password is futility.
[/gameshow whisper]

And Cartooniverse, I’ve already spat my tea after reading Celyn’s 2nd post to “When the Revolution Comes…”, and kicked myself 'cause I didn’t think of it.

POY, nice ring to it (but I’m too humble and tea-drenched to accept it). Thanks!

8

Why the hell is this in GQ? The OP even states "I just feel remarkably pissed and would like to vent. "

Even though this will soon be moved to the pit, I will keep my language under control…

F*ck you Rog668. Did you ever once think that maybe the sports facility was paid for- at least in part- by ticket sales of the games? At 7 dollars each, I am sure that’s a big budget after a couple years. When was the last time a thousand people paid 7 dollars to watch a debate?
Furthermore, do debators even need a facility?? You could debate in the middle of a damn parking lot if you wanted. Since there is always the school auditorium, what is it you want bought for your kids??
The money is used based on need. What the hell does a debate team need with a million dollars? I can easily think of things sports teams need. Equipment is NOT CHEAP!!

You want to get rid of organized sports in schools because you think it unfairly takes away money from your little program? Did you ever stop to think that maybe the same things debating is to you, maybe what football is to someone else. Not every athlete is a moron. Not every athlete does poorly in academics! Just because some do, does not mean we should just get rid of the whole system because you are unathletic and it’s not fair!
Organized sports do so much for people. Students learn competition, team work, getting along with others, staying in shape, working hard to achieve goals, leadership, tradition… Plus it keeps them from sitting on the couch doing nothing with their lives all year! I’m sorry, but I fail to see how we should just get rid of sports because some unathletic crybabies just don’t get it, and some crummy debate teacher doesn’t get enough money!

9

Thank you for restraining yourself, Bear_Nenno. I’ve rectified that detail; feel free now to fire at will.

10

WHAT EVER. At my college, Oregon State University, and many others across the country, football and other sports get over funded while academics languish. Our English department had to file for bankruptcy and teachers lost tenure. This did not stop the funding for the fucking football team and their new private workout area. We already have a very large, well-stocked building for working out.

The students who are on the football teams who have been in my classes have been imbeciles. They have demonstrated complete stupidity in all my English and psychology classes in which they were enrolled. They are not academically fit because coaches in high school allow grade inflation and fraud to keep their players from being taken off the team.
This does them NO favors, and grants them priveledges based solely on their athletic prowess.

FUCK YOU. F U C K Y O U!

They learn to be competitive to the point that it is win or die. They don’t learn to win and lose gracefully, and are told that they have no worth if they don’t win by coaches and ‘fans.’ It doesn’t teach leadership, it teaches ruthless domination at the expense of everyone else.

Plenty of us didn’t bother with sports for this reason and many more and were not sitting on a FUCKING couch all year, you testosterone poisoned neanderthal!

Some of us are VERY athletic, but see that athletics have a very short career span. Some of us want more than 10 years of work and then looking back on our years of glory as we do something we never wanted to do.

The debate team should get more money. Debaters end up changing the world as our writers, teachers, Representatives, Senators, and Presidents.

Except for a few notable exceptions, athletes, especially in football become our advertising pitchmen, felons, and rapists. Unless they choose to go gently into that good night when their career is over.

11

Come now…do you seriously believe this?

So supporting debate teams has no merit if people are not willing to pay for it. You don’t mean that, do you?

And likewise, one can play football in a damn field if one wants too. Or basketball in a damn parking lot. These are not fair comparisons on either side, however. It’s not so much “facilities” debators need, but they do have expenses for travel, research materials, and so forth.

How about looking at it as a question of relative balance. Take the numbers as given - $1000 for 20 students, versus “millions” - say $1,000,000 for football. Is Debate 1/1000 as worthy as football? How much does it cost to ferry students to one other city - $500 per trip?

Wow…that’s kinda harsh. So he does not support what he sees as exhorbitant funding for organized sports, and thus he is “unathletic”? Can you back up how you arrived at him being “unathletic”?

These same admirable qualities are often put forth as being the result of having a football team, basketball team, et al at a High School. I do not believe that organized sports in High Schools is shown to build these qualities at all.

So he’s unathletic AND a crummy debate teacher? Wow. Sounds like he needs to be picked on some more then.

I could start talking about how organized team sports create an “Uber Klass” of jocks that continually beat, pick on, and commit crimes against the “uncool”, the “outcast”, the “smart”, the “nerds”, etc. I could also discuss the relative merits of playing football versus begin a good debator later in life - you know, after High School, where the “Real World” begins?

But what would be the point? I would hazard that the majority of the SDMB has been victimized by jocks who wield the “jock mentality of dominance”, and this whole issue will quickly spiral into hyperbole, generalizations, and gross stereotyping.

12

Ban Sports in schools!

The entire “Jock” culture in schools causes way more problems than so-called “benefits”.

Would Harris and Klebold have gone nuts and killed had it not been for the taunts of “Jocks”, whom they targeted?

Do children benefit from the pressures to succeed placed on them by parents whos own dreams of Sports greatness failed?

Does anyone benefit when a school system spends millions on sports facilities, while teacher wages languish?

How about the community divisions caused by different teams in the same city?

Sports are nothing more than silly games. Far too much of our attention is diverted by such trivia as who made a touchdown/goal/birdee/basket last night.

What about the thousands of sports related injuries suffered by children every year? Blown knees, Head injuries, spinal injuries, broken bones/teeth. Ya ever seen a kid break an arm at a debate?

Anyone care to add to my little list?

13

I support sports in public schools. Sports are not evil, they are good.

Around here, everytime a crucial school levy is on the ballot, the warning is that if it doesn’t pass, then sports programs will be cut. They usually end up passing.

Many schools also require “pay to play”, a fee for each student and each sport that they choose to particpate in, and those fees help to subsidize the costs of the sports programs.

Also, expenses for things like over-night trips and such are usually funded by a combination of contributions by the parents organization (through fund-raisers) and out-of-pocket by the student/parents themselves.

Maybe the debate team needs to get off their butt and hold a few car washes, chili suppers, etc., as well as trying to build a strong parents organization.

14

I think I can add something to this one, being that I am a coach and PE teacher.

You may be surprised to hear that I agree that public school sports are a bit out of hand, especially in comparison to academcics. Allow me to elaborate.

  1. OUR SPORTS PRIORITIES ARE WRONG

Sports definitely take up a large part of school budgets. Just as importantly, they take up too much of our attention. Now I happen to think sports are fine, in and of themselves. I enjoy playing myself, and my goal as a teacher and coach is to get kids to enjoy playing simply for the sake of it. Winning is nice, but since you can’t win all the time, I feel you must learn to enjoy the game for itself. But we in the U.S. have made school athletics too formal, and we take a lot of the fun out of it. I would be happy to see just intramurals, or “club teams” such as are found in Germany I’m told (German Dopers, please give info on this). The general public is largely to blame for making too big a deal of sports. Witness all the lunatic parents at Little League games, and the way the world stops when the Super Bowl is on.

  1. SPORTS DRAWS AWAY RESOURCES

In most school districts, as in mine, there is one adminstrator responsible for both athletics and Physical Education. Guess which one ends up getting the lion’s share of his/her attention? I find it criminal that my teaching is observed rarely, while my coaching behavior is carefully scrutinized by my boss. Very poor priorities.

Others in this thread have talked about the relative ease with which sports facilities get funded as opposed to art centers, etc. So I won’t comment further.

  1. ATHLETICS ARE ELITIST ACTIVITIES IN SCHOOLS

JV & Varsity teams are made up of the best athletes who try out. Kids can be cut if they aren’t good enough, which would be fine if they had another place to play, such as intramurals. But many districts don’t have intramurals or other venues, and the kids who are cut are simply out of luck. Being that it costs a lot of money to field a football team, I cannot justify the expense as it serves the few who actually participate in the activity. And I reject the claim that others participate by viewing the game.

I will not address the relative academic success of athletes vs. non-athletes. I’ve known some very intellient athletes, and coaches who insist their players take care of their acadmeic responsibilities. There are lots of non-athletes who also don’t care about school and get associated with negative cliques. Sports cannot be shown to necessarily be the causative factor in being a dimwit.

I personally only coach middle school “modified” teams, where the focus is on learning the game. I want no part of the ultra-competitive JV & Varisty levels. Also, my district has no football team, which is one of the reasons I took the job. My hope is to be allowed to simply teach Physical Education, and not be required to coach. PE has enough problems without the teachers having to spend most of their energy on after school activities.

Most importantly, PE serves ALL the students, not just the few on sports teams. It’s criminal that my field doesn’t focus on that fact. In many ways PE deserves the bad rap it gets.

15

**

Why do you have to leave town every weekend to discuss moral issues with other kids? Are there no other schools in the area that have kids?

**

So there are other kids nearby who play football. But none nearby that can debate?

Marc

16

Anthracite,

Of course… Which part is not true? The part where the fans buy tickets? Or the part where the money is put in the sports budget? What else do they do with all that money?
I know for a fact that the couch of my highschool game got ALL the money from parking fees. It was like five dollars a car. He always bought us t-shirts and stuff and he was able to buy to weightroom equipment and other needs. I assume that at least part of the ticket proceeds would go back to the general sports budget.

No, I don’t mean that. And I hope that’s not what I said. What I said (meant to say) was that the debate team probably gets enough money to satisfy their needs, and the reason they do not get AS MUCH as the football team, is because the football team brings in more money. The debate team should find other ways to make money if they can not sell tickets. Car washes do very well here. Clubs and other organizations here are allowed to have fundraisers at the football games- selling food or other things.

I think this is a very fair comparison. Sure it can be played in a field, but the field needs to be mowed, painted, and have two goal posts. These things are mandatory. Plus football cannot be played without equipment: shoulder pads, uniforms, helmets, pants, more pads. Let’s not forget referee salaries, salaries of off duty police officers and salaries of the maintainance crew who keeps up the field. Sports programs need a lot of money.

I am not sure about the math, but shouldn’t the fact the football team has over twice the amount of people on a team be factored in there somewhere. Not to mention the fact that mandatory debate equipment includes, the student and his personal clothes (maybe a 30 dollar uniform) whereas each football player wears over 500 dollars of equipment. Add to that the price of balls, practice equipment, water coolers and such… I think it come close to evening out in the end.

This is more directed toward those who are claiming all football players lack academic prowess. I will back up how I arrived at them being “unathletic” when they back up how they arrived at me being “unintelligent”.

We are just gonna have to disagree here.

So it’s ok for him to say what I did in high school is a total waste and sports should be taken out of public schools? But I am being mean at taking offense at this? I’ve never made claims like “debate teams are inferior and a waste of time in public schools. No one could ever benefit from such a program”. I think to each, his own.
particlewill,

Do you really think school sports is to blame for the deaths of those students. Come on! Your lists appears to be nothing but a lot of overgeneralizations. My parents never stressed the all important goal of winning. My coaches never taught me to win at all costs. I’m sure this might happen somewhere, but this is more an overused plot in movies than anything else.

More importantly, why the hell are they staying overnight in hotels for this? Can you not travel there and back in a day? How far away are you guys going? What moral issues are they discussing every weekend? Here, whenever ANY organization needs to stay in hotels for competitions (usually once or twice a year, not every freakin week!) they earn their own money through fundraisers or just pay for the whole thing out of pocket.

17

Bear_Nenno wrote:

and…

So, why does the Debate Team have to wash cars and sell hot dogs, but the Football Team should expect to have everything paid for automatically.

Think about it. Take 1% of the Football Team’s budget. Assuming $1,000,000 would be $10,000, and give it to the debate team.

Tell me Rog668, how far would that go for you? Bear_Nenno, I am sure you won’t mind doing a car wash or 2 to help make up the difference, won’t you?

For crying out loud. Rog668 is talking about High School sports. High School. This is the time for a child to acertain what his or her’s strengths are. Not everyone is going to want to be a professional athlete. And even those who play sports are not all going to make the majors. So why do you advocate heavily skewing the funds into the more high profile areas?

Back when I was in University, I played on the Men’s Squash Team (I know, I know…). Our funding from the school totaled ZERO dollars. In order to pay for our trips to other schools for tournaments, we had to do a lot of fundraising. This of course is on top of a full, non-rubber-stamped, course load (no such thing as scholorships). I’ll never forget working at the concession stand during the homecoming games, watching the fully funded football team lose on their way to yet another 2-8 season, all the while looking forward to our team’s eventual silver medal finish…

18

grok, you sound like a damn cool person and ill bet youre a good coach, too. your kids are lucky to have you. participating in sports was supposed to, at one time, teach you how to get along with others, how to function as part of a team, how to win and lose gracefully, and it was supposed to teach sportsmanship, too. not any more. i predict that theyll be taking sportsmanship out of the dictionary soon, myself, and relegating it to the oed…

19

Bear_Nenno wrote:

Wimp. Try here or here. :stuck_out_tongue:

20

At the risk of a bad pun, Bear, that’s just Bull. Read his OP again - not only did he never once call your intelligence or the intelligence of athletic supporters into question (no pun intended again), he didn’t say one thing derrogatory about athletics at all! You may be referring to others here, but it is not clear at all from your post. Thus, my post, and my point.

Fair is fair. He didn’t claim, imply, or hint any such thing. Other people did - address them.

Actually, considering how violent of emotions this topic raises in some people, I think the manner in which the OP is stated is really pretty damn benign.