[QUOTE=EmAnJ]
Does he ever get to run around outside of the yard?
[/QUOTE]
No. I live in a village with a leash law. But he is a teddy bear - a shih tzu/bishon mix. They are bred for companionship, not hunting, chasing, whatever. He gets his exercise on the lead and chasing his tennis ball or tire toy inside. And often walking on a leash. Trust me - his exercise needs are met.
Yep, there’s a lot of unfair stereotyping of pit bulls as aggressive potential killers. I’ll bet if you looked at the stats rigorously you’d find lots of cases of Shih Tzus and cocker spaniels killing people.
[QUOTE=carnivorousplant]
Putting the small dog in a trash can is a great idea.
[/QUOTE]
Most dogs I’ve known would agree. “Party Time!!!”
What would be nice is a study that reconciled sixteen dog bite fatalities a year with 4.7mil dog bite injuries a year–granted that larger dogs will lead the fatality statistics, I would love to know which breeds lead in the biting attacks in general as a more clear guide to which breeds I should be wary of. I mean, if there are, say 6 pit bull bit fatalities in a year, but only a few hundred incidents of pit bulls biting, but there are a half-million instances of jack russell terriers biting (but not usually fatally), I’m still gonna be more wary of jacks than pits.
[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
From pitbulllovers.com?
Heh-heh.
OK.
[/QUOTE]
The University of Georgia professor is an administrator of pitbulllovers.com?
[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
From pitbulllovers.com?
Heh-heh.
OK.
[/QUOTE]
Well, did you say that when Mosier cited dogbitelaw.com? No? Then you know what to do.
Sailboat
[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
They ARE dogs that have a genetic propensity towards aggression, and unfortunately for the victims of their seemingly “random” attacks, they also have a genetic propensity for being a “finisher” in attack mode.
[/QUOTE]
Disingenuous. You, or your news sources, have conflated very different forms of aggression.
Many dog experts have stated that pit bulls have a propensity for DOG aggression, which is totally different from HUMAN aggression. They are well below the “guarding breeds” in HUMAN aggression.
Sailboat
[QUOTE=Jackmannii]
Yep, there’s a lot of unfair stereotyping of pit bulls as aggressive potential killers. I’ll bet if you looked at the stats rigorously you’d find lots of cases of Shih Tzus and cocker spaniels killing people.
[/QUOTE]
If that’s sarcasm, please read my link about the Jack Russell Terrier killing people.
Also, the point of the CDC cite is that there ARE NO statistics available that would show what you’re asserting. No one knows what proportion of the dog population could be called “pit bull.” Bite reports notoriously misidentify breed; often it seems the logic used is “if it bit, it must have been a pit.” Most people are terrible at IDing breed anyway; see how you do on this test.
I’ve personally noted news stories about pit bull attacks in which the follow-up stories don’t mention the breed, and sure enough, when there’s a picture associated with the ongoing story, it’s clearly not a pit bull – the new will call it a pit bull until they can’t get away with saying it, then call it “a dog” rather than “unfairly blame” a Labradoodle or Shiba Inu or whatever.
I’m sure the evidence was overwhelming in Salem too. Everyone knows witches are bad. Good people don’t cast spells any more than cocker spaniels attack; if a speall is cast, that woman must have been a witch, if a dog attacked, that dog must have been a pit bull.
Sailboat
This is why I avoid pit bulls and why I panicked last week when I started this thread:
Attack one: lab and I chased down our street by pit that jumped over her fence. Lab is on leash and pit chases us up the stairs to our apartment, corners Cooper, and bites him on the hocks. Vet visit = $150 for wound cleaning and powder for the claw nail Coop tore off trying to get away from the attacking dog. Police visit to owner after she threatened to kill me when I told her about the incident: $300 for the taxpayer.
Attack two: Cooper is at the dog park and is rolled by a pit bull who grabs him at the jugular. Takes three men and a giant stick to pry the pit’s mouth open. Vet visit= $80 for wound cleaning and antibiotics. Other costs: Cooper did not get to enjoy the dog park again because I was too frightened to take him back.
Attack three: Cooper, who is now 12 years old, is stolling along the beach in the early evening with friends who are dogsitting him. Cooper is on a leash; the two pits that an idiot releases from his van are not. The dogs tackle Cooper and try to kill him. David has to stab the dogs with his Handyman pocket knife to get them to release. Cost: $745 for wound cleaning and 250 stitches and seven infection drains. Coordination with Animal Control, police, and marshall to serve warrants: uncertain. This particular owner moved instead of facing the music in court and I could not find him to serve the warrant.
I love, adore, worship my doggies and would never hurt a dog with the exception of another fucking attacking pit bull. I understand that people love their pits and there are many, many good, responsible owners; however, my experiences have taught that when a pit instigates a dog attack, it goes for the kill. We’re not talking a lab vs. hound dog fight where someone’s ear gets bit. Pits are just fine in a public place on a leash and being held by a strong adult; otherwise, keep it at home behind a secure fence.
[QUOTE=carnivorousplant]
Putting the small dog in a trash can is a great idea. Mrs. Plant tells me that picking up asmall dog to protect it is “the worst thing you can do”. Any comments on that?
[/QUOTE]
I never had trouble but I have been owned by beagles. Leaving Quincy on the ground with a pit bull was not an option. I did not want him to hurt it.
[QUOTE=Sailboat]
If that’s sarcasm, please read my link about the Jack Russell Terrier killing people.
Also, the point of the CDC cite is that there ARE NO statistics available that would show what you’re asserting. No one knows what proportion of the dog population could be called “pit bull.” Bite reports notoriously misidentify breed; often it seems the logic used is “if it bit, it must have been a pit.” Most people are terrible at IDing breed anyway; see how you do on this test.
I’ve personally noted news stories about pit bull attacks in which the follow-up stories don’t mention the breed, and sure enough, when there’s a picture associated with the ongoing story, it’s clearly not a pit bull – the new will call it a pit bull until they can’t get away with saying it, then call it “a dog” rather than “unfairly blame” a Labradoodle or Shiba Inu or whatever.
I’m sure the evidence was overwhelming in Salem too. Everyone knows witches are bad. Good people don’t cast spells any more than cocker spaniels attack; if a speall is cast, that woman must have been a witch, if a dog attacked, that dog must have been a pit bull.
Sailboat
[/QUOTE]
The only pit bull picture on that test is of a puppy. That’s rather disingenuous.
Has anyone not owned dogs of different breeeds and noticed that, you know, they have different personalities, often dictated by their breeds?
We had a Pyrenean, which is a type of sheepdog. She was completely uninterested in fetching, but if allowed off the leash would “herd” the family members into a group and stop anyone from straggling on a walk. Sweet dog, and the only time another dog attacked her, she responded by sitting on it. She didn’t like strangers and would often “guard” family members from people and dogs she didn’t know. Not an easy dog to train- basically because of their size and what they were bred for, they only do things if they think they are a good idea, but other than trying to run away if we tried to end a walk early, this wasn’t ever a problem. If you read the breed characteristics you’ll see that she fit them completely.
Our Lab/German Shepherd cross, OTOH was absolutely mental about fetching- loved having sticks thrown, loved swimming and would dive into the sea to “fetch” thrown pebbles. She used to walk everywhere with a stick in her mouth. Much more of a gun dog temperament, and almost totally uninteresed in other dogs. Never attacked by another dog, but then she never really interacted with them. Totally obedient, easy to train, learnt a lot of “tricks” and behaved beautifully everywhere. Basically, she had all the good qualities of both breeds.
Same owners, same treatment, totally different dogs, but both large and totally docile.
Yes, a bad owner will make any dog unsafe, but it takes a really good owner to keep a big, aggressive dog that was bred to fight safe in any way. As most owners simply aren’t that good, so most Pit Bulls are unsafe.
[QUOTE=Crocodiles And Boulevards]
The only pit bull picture on that test is of a puppy. That’s rather disingenuous.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure what you mean. Does it SAY it’s a puppy, do you have knowledge of that specific dog, or are you just surprised it’s not big?
The American Pit Bull Terrier pictured looks like a typical adult game-bred pit bull. Admittedly it doens’t look like the cross-bred oversized monsters some urban hoodlums have been producing, but there’s a movement afoot to designate those a new breed, the American Bully. The original APBT ranges from 35-65 pounds as a male and 30-60 pounds as a female…anything larger than that is probably not an APBT. I have a fully-grown APBT female who weighs 35 pounds, securely within the normal range, and people constantly ask if she’s a puppy, or a runt.
Pit bulls are not as big as people think/want/believe/breed for these days. Those stories of 90, and I’ve even seen, 130 pound pit bulls, aren’t American Pit Bull Terriers. Maybe mastiff crosses of some kind.
[QUOTE=Irishgirl]
Yes, a bad owner will make any dog unsafe, but it takes a really good owner to keep a big, aggressive dog that was bred to fight safe in any way.
[/QUOTE]
American Pit Bull Terriers aren’t “big.” American Staffordshires are barely, if at all, any larger. Staffybulls are smaller.
Sailboat
Yesterday, for the second time this year, dogs attacked and killed a miniature horse in my town. The first time, two dogs attacked a stable of miniature horses belonging to a charity called “Hearts and Hooves”, a group that takes the horses into hospitals and such as therapy animals for people who can’t get out. The dogs killed four of the horses and seriously wounded another one. Talk about pictures that’ll break your heart.
The latest attack hits even closer to home, though, because the horse that was killed belonged to a friend’s grandfather, who had bought the horse as a gift to his 16-month-old great-granddaughter (the friend’s baby). What’s not in the news story: there were two miniature horses in the stable, Mickey and Minnie. The dogs killed Minnie, and they were starting to go after Mickey. Fortunately, two things intervened: a full-sized horse in the same stable came and attempted to hold the dogs off, and a neighbor happened by in a pickup truck and saw the attack. This being Texas, he had a shotgun in his truck, and he wounded one of the dogs, scaring both off with his shots. The neighbor was able to follow the wounded dog back to its house, where apparently it and its mongrel kin were allowed to run around completely free and unfettered, and breed like rabbits. The owners make no attempt to contain them. And ever since the attack, Mickey has not left the side of the horse that helped save him.
So, I think I’ll be getting that concealed carry license if I’m gonna go out walking in the evening.
[QUOTE=Cartooniverse]
Boy, I just wrote a whole vintage rant and in Preview I realize it won’t make a goddamned bit of difference.
You need everyone to agree with your point of view instead of being allowed to speak their minds about Pit Bulls.
Pitiful.
Cartooniverse
[/QUOTE]
I feel the same. People that love this breed will seek anyway to discredit warnings of it. I posted a link on an earlier thread that more than a third of the animals in my local animal shelter are pits. It is very sad but they are put down more often than not because they rarely get adopted.
I was countered that they may not all be pits but just look like them. :dubious:
The point was no one wants that breed because they are unpredictable and tend to be aggressive. They don’t just have a bad rap. Many of us have had experiences with the breed.
But yeah, Carooniverse, getting into a long post with examples is just pointless.
What astounds me the most about these sort of discussions is the willingness to overlook the most painfully obvious evidence. I’m not getting into specific breeds either.
Every single story I’ve ever read about someone attacked/mauled/killed by a dog includes an owner or neighbour uttering the words, “He’s never ever done anything like this before.” I’m sure that’s terribly comforting to the person/pet that was attacked or mauled.
They are animals. And, from time to time they act like animals and not pets. Yes, even when they’ve sometimes been nothing but sweet since the beginning of time. And yes, innocents deserve to be protected from them, that’s why there are leash laws.
I walk my dog to a park with clear signage stating you are not to have your animal off leash. When I get to the park and another owner, who has the park to himself, has his pet off leash, I’m willing to be understanding. But when you see another dog get yours back on it’s leash, you no longer have the park to yourself.
When your dog is bounding, full bore across the park at me and my dog I have no real way of knowing whether to run or defend myself or stand my ground. And seeing you just standing their grinning isn’t really reassuring to me. I’m sure when my dog gets attacked you’ll be right there on the news saying, “Gee, he’s never done anything like this before!”
Sorry for the hijack!
[QUOTE=elbows]
When your dog is bounding, full bore across the park at me and my dog I have no real way of knowing whether to run or defend myself or stand my ground.
[/QUOTE]
Imagine not having ever owned a dog, not liking dogs that much and having been bitten by a loose/stray dog and having one bound toward you. Very scary.
I had a friend, years ago, who had the friendliest, most gentle mutt I’d ever met. My friend would a) bring her dog to wooded areas where dogs were not allowed and b) let the dog run loose. Other people in the woods would appear to be nervous (if not terrified) as the dog ran toward them, and my friend would scoff at them. Idiot.
[QUOTE=elbows]
When your dog is bounding, full bore across the park at me and my dog I have no real way of knowing whether to run or defend myself or stand my ground. And seeing you just standing their grinning isn’t really reassuring to me. I’m sure when my dog gets attacked you’ll be right there on the news saying, “Gee, he’s never done anything like this before!”
Sorry for the hijack!
[/QUOTE]
Not a hijack, it’s very topical. I totally agree that all dogs should be leashed or fenced when outside.
Some readers might be surprised to find this is a point of very strong universal agreement among responsible pit bull people. One of the most common topics of discussion I see on pit bull websites is unleashed dogs of all sorts running up to someone’s leashed pit bull. Naturally, if you have a dog-aggressive animal, you do NOT want random dogs running at him/her, even if said unleashed dog is friendly.
One of my dogs (the pit bull mix) is dog-aggressive. Loose dogs – even friendly ones – are a danger to her life. If they run into her and she fights, the authorities, like so many others, perhaps even people reading this, will be guided by their fears and not by the realities of which one of us was obeying the leash laws.
For those who might be wondering, the other dog, the full-blooded APBT, isn’t the least bit aggressive toward any dog or person. Last time a chihuahua ran at her, she lay down in the grass, facing him like a sphinx, and calmly waited for him to come over and bump noses.
Sailboat
[QUOTE=Jennshark]
Pits are just fine in a public place on a leash and being held by a strong adult; otherwise, keep it at home behind a secure fence.
[/QUOTE]
See, I absolutely agree with this point, EXCEPT that it applies to all dogs, not just pits. (Well, OK, a MinPin doesn’t really require a “strong” adult, but you know what I mean.)
ANY large (or even medium-sized) dog can be dangerous if the owners don’t have control. I’ve had several dogs act threateningly towards me in various situations. They were all Labradors or Lab mixes. One of those repeatedly came into my yard and on to my porch to attack people - I beat him off of several people with a two-by-four. (Animal control explicitly refused to do anything until the dog actually bit someone. :rolleyes: )
I could generalize from this that all Labs are dangerous, aggressive dogs that should be banned (and there are some stats showing that Labs are responsible for large numbers of attacks and bites).
Instead, I understand that the problem isn’t the kind of dog, it’s the owners, and the lack of enforcement of valid dog-control legislation.
JFTR, I’ve never owned a pit or pitcross and have no plans to do so. Nothing wrong with them, just one of many breeds that I’m not particularly interested in owning.
So don’t try to write me off as some kind of “pitbull lover” who’s willfully ignoring any evidence against my beloved breed. Nope, I’m just someone with lots of dog experience who knows that breed-based legislation is idiotic, ineffective, and faddish.
[QUOTE=redtail23]
See, I absolutely agree with this point, EXCEPT that it applies to all dogs, not just pits. (Well, OK, a MinPin doesn’t really require a “strong” adult, but you know what I mean.)
ANY large (or even medium-sized) dog can be dangerous if the owners don’t have control. I’ve had several dogs act threateningly towards me in various situations. They were all Labradors or Lab mixes. One of those repeatedly came into my yard and on to my porch to attack people - I beat him off of several people with a two-by-four. (Animal control explicitly refused to do anything until the dog actually bit someone. :rolleyes: )
I could generalize from this that all Labs are dangerous, aggressive dogs that should be banned (and there are some stats showing that Labs are responsible for large numbers of attacks and bites).
Instead, I understand that the problem isn’t the kind of dog, it’s the owners, and the lack of enforcement of valid dog-control legislation.
JFTR, I’ve never owned a pit or pitcross and have no plans to do so. Nothing wrong with them, just one of many breeds that I’m not particularly interested in owning.
So don’t try to write me off as some kind of “pitbull lover” who’s willfully ignoring any evidence against my beloved breed. Nope, I’m just someone with lots of dog experience who knows that breed-based legislation is idiotic, ineffective, and faddish.
[/QUOTE]
I’d have to concede that despite the fact that Pits can be unpredictable in any circumstance, that this same unpredictability resides in all dogs, hence the owner’s “He’s never done anything like this before!” exclamations.
I also agree that the owner goes a long way towards the outcome of any dog’s adult behavior.
But, how can you force an irresponsible person to not own and irresponsibly raise a breed like a Pit bull, which has been shown time and again given these circumstances that it is a danger to public safety? Bans are the only thing I can think of. Pits are too fashionable a breed amongst gangsters and the like, and they are generally the worst kind of dog owner there is.
Arresting or charging somone after a toddler has been mauled or a dog killed is too late for the parent/dead dog owner.