Now where the fuck did I do that? Your 20 years of experience, whatever they are, will have to be amazingly reputable in order to justify the level of obnoxiousness you’re giving off. I agree that the graduation idea is silly in and of itself, and perhaps the yearbook idea is too much as well, but there you go.
The embarrassment and feelings of incompetancy can come from a child’s sense of confusion when nothing has been explained to them. Nowhere have I expressed “fear” that parents are "too incompetant’ to speak to their own children. What I said was that in my experience, the majority of parents whose children are not moving on to kindergarten have not discussed it with their child.
Let’s see if I can say that another way that makes more sense.
When a young child is caught unaware in a situation, feelings of incompetancy can move in. Events such as a graduation ceremony, tend to cast a spotlight on that type of confusion.
Even your words regarding readiness, heard by a sensitive child, can dredge up feelings of incompetancy. I think a better way to handle it (in a perfect world) would be for parents and teachers to simply tell a child it’s not their time yet. For years, whenever the issue of kindergarten came up in my classrooms (normally in the last month or so of school) I’ve found it helpful after children raised the issue of going to kindergarten to simply tell them “Everyone here will go to kindergarten. Some will go this Fall, some will go next Fall. Mom and Dad will tell you when it’s your time.”
regards,
widdley
You are exactly right, Marley. You didn’t do that, Guinastasia did. I returned here at this late hour to correct my statement. Amazingly reputable…level of obnoxiousness. Well, after racking up nearly 20 years in a field one tends not to shy away from speaking with some level of confidence. If you find that obnoxious, there’s nothing I can do about that.
regards,
widdley
I really like that your school supplies flexibility based on developmental assessment! How do they handle moving up through the grades? Are they flexible throughout? Also, why wouldn’t they sit on admission to kindergarten for those deemed not ready? It’s late, I may not be reading you right here. I’m fairly certain they’d assess at that time. It really is good to know there are school districts willing to offer some flexibility. Where I teach right now, birthday cut offs are written in stone. Make that granite!
regards, (yawn)
widdley
Of course my experience is “reputable”. Why in the world wouldn’t it be and how would you know or presume to find out if it weren’t? Good grief.
regards,
widdley
I don’t understand your distinction. If, in your opinion, they should be doing it and they aren’t, then they are failing to do their jobs as parents.
So what are we talking about here? Why the outrage about graduations? Isn’t your beef actually with parents not talking to their kids about graduation beforehand? And can’t that be addressed most easily by having the teachers explain it - in your words or mine? Or by sending home a note teaching the parents how to address it?
In addition, it occured to me this morning that I don’t believe preschoolers have internalized the “1 year = 1 promotion” ideal of American schools. Many of them have been in daycare or “preschool” for three years at this point. Why should remaining here another year engender feelings of inadequacy? Do you think the kids aren’t going to notice that their friends aren’t there next year simply because you didn’t hold a fun little ceremony? Now they’re going to feel incompetent AND confused, as well as lose trust for their authority figures because nothing was ever explained!
Frankly, if you don’t have the skills, you shouldn’t get the promotion, whether you’re 4 years old or 44. And the soonder the kids are (gently) taught this and supported in processing their negative feelings, the sooner they will learn that it’s not the end of the world, they can achieve their goals if they work hard and understand what they are. Avoiding teaching this very important life lesson because we’re afraid of causing any pain at all to children is dangerous and subversive. It’s one huge reason why (IMHO) we end up with kids who can’t delay gratification.
In short, what’s wrong with “feelings of incompetency”? They can be a highly motivating tool towards mastery! Yes, they need to be offered in moderation, NO, I don’t advocate shaming children to make them learn better. But presenting reality as it is is simply teaching kids how the world works and letting them learn how to deal with the emotions that raises.
You have 20 years of experience, sure. I’ll grant you whatever points you’d like for that. But I also have 20 years of experience with children, and much of it has not been impressed by the results we’ve gotten putting self-esteem ahead of reality.
I don’t know if school districts offer flexibilty- my kids went to a private school. I suppose it’s possible that if a child was deemed ready for pre-k, did ok in pre -k all year,but still seemed not ready for kindergarten, that child might be held back. I didn’t see it happen once in ten years. I don’t think it’s because they wouldn’t hold a child back who wasn’t ready- rather , I believe it’s because the children they admit to pre-k, who finish the year are ready for kindergarten a year later. In fact, I can’t really understand how a school- based, one year long pre-k program could commonly have children complete a year and not be ready for kindergarten. ( I can understand how that can happen in other sorts of programs ) . I believe there were a couple of parents advised to take their children out of pre-k in the first couple of weeks because they were not ready. The assessment is done when the kids first enter the school in pre-k or kindergarten and really is informal to the point that my son didn’t actually have one- there wasn’t any need, as the principal and pre-k teacher generally know the younger siblings of current students well from interacting with them at different events, or when parents do their mandatory service.
Are they flexible moving up the grades? I’m not sure what you mean. My daughter had a classmate whose birthday was a few days after the cut-off. She was born in 1/90, while the cut-off for that class was 12/31/89. She went all the way from pre-k to 8th grade with that class, graduated with that class and is now in her second year of high school just like the rest of that class.
How long (20 years) have you (20 years) been in this (20 years) field? I’m not (20 years) sure, since (20 years) you have completely (20 years) neglected (20 years) to mention it as (20 years) frequently as fucking (20 years) possible.
Also, could this obsession with self-esteem possibly be contributing to the recent rash of young adults who are either unwilling or mentally unable to leave their parents’ houses, largely because the Real World doesn’t give a shit if Precious’s feelings are hurt, and Mr. Landlord isn’t going to sigh and say, “Well, when you can, then, Honey?”
Your philosophy fits right in with the “everyone gets a trophy” and “no one has to audition” mentality that’s confusing the hell out of kids who have a healthy sense of competition.
I can understand not wanting a pre-school graduation ceremony (caps and gowns and all) because it waters down what it means to really graduate. It creates an artificial milestone, IMHO, as if graduating pre-school is a bigger deal than it really is. Save the pomp and circumstance when the kids will be old enough to appreciate it, and when they are actually moving on to something bigger and better. Kindegarten ain’t it, no matter how you want to spin it.
I don’t worry for the kids’ mental health, though. That seems kind of silly.
As for the scrapbook idea, that sounds great on the surface, but I don’t think it makes sense to have a complete stranger (or almost complete stranger) compile your child’s artwork. Not everything your child makes is special or beautiful. Some of it can be tossed out. Some of it needs to be given special recognition. A stranger will not feel at liberty to distinguish the two. So basically the end result will be no different than what you would find in a packrack’s shoe box stored in the attic (my parents preferred to keep my most awesome pre-school artwork crammed against the wall behind the piano, safe from light and easily forgotten between spring cleaning events).
I like widdleytinks’s idea about the CD.
Hi Hamadryad,
I mentioned longetivity in the field three times in order to validate that my opinions were based on years of observation. Why is that a problem? I remember when I participated in the Schiavo threads Doctor J referring to his professional experience and I appreciated knowing that I was hearing from a healthcare professional as well as the nurses (whose screen names I can’t recall just now) who shared their experience based insights and opinions. I don’t understand your reaction to my doing the same. The good news is that I rarely post on this board and mainly only in the Pit so you’ll have no trouble avoiding me. If you see my screen name…run for your life! 
I totally agree with you that we make too much of self esteem and don’t allow children to experience a healthy level of disappointment. But I have to say that I think the early years are ones that require…what shall I call it…a good dose of personality strengthening that will help children tackle the trials/errors/failures/disappointments they’ll face in future schooling and in life.
By about 1st grade (and I think that’s about the appropriate time) children are exposed to more formalized testing and the grades that follow. Failing in an area or not “making the cut” for special groups or what have you is important to that part of a person that either sends the internal message: I’m am nothing…or I think I can do better if… I do think that what we do in the early years impacts that internal dialogue.
I do wish parents and teachers would make a stronger effort to be reading off the same page so to speak. In some school districts (probably a majority) teachers are so over loaded with accountability documentation that I doubt they can give the personal type of service they’d like to. But what is there to do? Budget driven tax increases rely on accountability. Who wants to fork out for schools that aren’t producing up to par? It really is a kind of catch 22, isn’t it?
Anyway, I do agree that we forget about the importance of STRIVING. But again, I do think that in the early years we should be pumping up that sense of self esteem.
regards,
widdley
The CD’s were wonderful! I don’t really know how long it takes to produce one CD and then dub off the rest, but parents were very appreciative of these. The Mom would visit each class about once a month and accompany classes on field trips and other events. The only thing was after the first year (she was testing the waters for a new business, mind you) she planned to charge 35 bucks a pop for the CD’s, so interest kind of went out the window after that. As you mention art work and the scrapbooks, something else comes to mind. I currently use portfolio assessment which means I collect pieces of children’s work (writing and art samples) periodically and write interpretive narratives about those. In addition to that, I photograph with a digital camera those things that cannot be taken home…a child engaged in a construction experience, for example. At the end of the year, the portfolios are sent home with the parent. Other things are included to make it a kind of keepsake similar to the scrap book idea. I’m not finding that difficult to do once I got myself organized.
The CD’s were the best though. She included music and various techniques such as the page opening to show the inside of the school and classrooms. I admire anyone who can produce something like that and I sure have appreciated Mom’s like Shirley and Eleanor who give so tirelessly to a school and it’s families. In every school community you find that core group who are willing to pitch in. They become the room volunteers in elementary school and end up decorating the school for senior prom. Public school teachers could hardly work without them. I often wonder if parents in general really understand and recognize the contribution they make to our students? Sometimes I doubt it.
regards,
widdley
Generally, it’s not a problem and is in fact good information to have. The repetition was unneccesary and cloying. It begins to feel as if you cannot articulate a logical response and are falling back on your “authority” to win the argument. That doesn’t go over well, generally speaking.
And I think “pumping up” is exactly the problem. The self-esteem should be raised just as high as it goes naturally, by paying attention to our kids, praising them when they do well and teaching them in different ways if the old ones aren’t working. “Pumping up” self-esteem by hiding ability differences, downplaying growth challenges and making everything 100% “fair” is the problem, not the solution.
A five month old baby will fail when she tries to sit up for the first time. She will struggle and roll backwards and perhaps even knock her head. Is this going to “dredge up feelings of incompetency?” Well, she’ll realize she can’t sit up yet, if that’s what you mean. She’s not going to be psychologically traumatized by it, though. In fact, the act of falling over is what’s going to motivate her to try again. We praise her efforts, but we celebrate her eventual success far more. We don’t prop her up next to her already-sitting friend and try to fool her that she got there on her own.
The anxiety about feeling incompetent and the negative effects it will have on the children is almost entirely projection on the part of insecure parents and teachers.
(BTW, I also love the CD idea. As a parent, I’d prefer it to a book.)
Slight tangent here.
(and thanks for the kind comments, widdely ).
My daughter was let into pre-school early. Around here, the cutoff for entrance is 3 by Sept 1. She was an Oct Bday, but truly my hands were full with her. No, no behavior problems, she was ready for more, ie-preschool. So, I asked the Director to meet her. She reluctantly did so (because she was pressed every year by parents insisting on their lil genuis child getting in) and within 5 minutes alone with dd, she said to me-she’s in. BUT.
Because of the public school having the same policy, she will need 3 years of pre-school. Fine by me. All are happy and she had a great preschool experience.
Fast foward to her 4 y/o year. She is in with kids entering Kgarten the next fall. No difference in behavior or maturity etc. This was before all day Kgarten became common. The preschool and the Kgarten were on the same schedule.
NONE of her friends in that 4 y/o class would play with her once they had moved on to Kindergarten. She was called a “baby” by several(you don’t go to big school was how one put it–and indeed, she did not) and I put the kabosh on those playdates. She had plenty of friends in the pre-K class, as she does today in high school.
I don’t agree with widdley that a graduation is problematic, but I do see her point that there can be issues raised. I have always felt that kids at age 4-5 are not given enough credit for deep feelings/insight. They may not be able to articulate them, but they are there-and should be respected.
Case in point: dd’s pre-K teacher (this is a true story, sorry that it’s long) up and decided one day that she didn’t want to do this anymore. She gave NO notice, just didn’t show up. Director is scrambling to find another teacher in April(!) and cannot even get ahold of this nimrod for a few days. A sub is found (light years better than the original–Mrs. H was fantastic) for the rest of the year.
Director–who had made a point of being a child advocate for all the years I’d known her, told us (parents) that the kids “most likely wouldn’t notice or care that much that Mrs. P was gone”. WRONG-dd cried for a few days and said stuff like, “what did I do wrong? Why did she leave like that?” We had talks about choices etc and I had to shore up more than one pre-K’er who thought that they had been “bad” and made Mrs. P. leave. :eek: :mad:
(When I found out later (my kids were long out of there) that the same Director had hired Mrs. P BACK—I felt a retroactive rage. WTF? :mad: ).
Sorry to go OT, but I thought it was related. My longwinded point is that kids can and do notice stuff. I am not saying that we should alter the facts to make everyone feel good–I am saying that the issues need to be addressed by the parents, in a way that the kids can understand.
Oh for crying out loud. I mentioned my experience in three post to three different posters who don’t know me from Adam. Am I to assume everyone here reads every post directed to all posters? Please. I’ve articulated a series of logical responses here. What is the deal? This is a fricking message board, not a court room. If I am mistaken, I stand convicted of backing up my opinions by stating experience longevity. Holy cats, let’s move on.
I agree with what you’ve stated regarding competancy, in part. The child who knocks her head while trying to sit up isn’t cognizant of social related issues. Of course we prop up our 5-7 month olds. I don’t know why you used that. Initiative is what makes a child strive. When I write about self esteem, I’m getting at impaired initiative. I do agree with the parenting issues you raised. Those are largely the foundations of good self-esteem.
Now, please, I came on this thread to offer affirmation to Shirley, made one small statement and all hell broke loose. And yes, the CD’s were great.
regards,
widdley
I would.
I do, too, otherwise I might stupidly say something which someone else has already said. I think reading every post in the thread should be a “duh” and too often isn’t.
That’s why I think it’s coming across like you’re belaboring the point - that’s (obviously) how it came across to me, and I wasn’t alone. Even though you felt like you were making individual replies to three people, you were actually telling everyone three times - ya’ dig?
Of course I dig. I made three references to experience that generated a series of *off topic * critical responses. I typically read every post in a thread before entering it, I do not assume others do the same. I disagree that reading every post in a thread is a “duh” for people who are busy.
Had I offered my opinions/observations without validation don’t you think someone would have asked me what basis I had for those opinions and observations? I gave them going in and for shit’s sake, this is the Pit not GD, who really cares?
regards,
widdley
YMMV, but I think if you’re too busy to read every post, you’re too busy to be posting. It’s common courtesy to read every post before posting, at least, so that you don’t come in with trumpets blaring and guns firing only to have everyone say, “Er, we already discussed that fifteen posts ago.”
Offering validation isn’t the issue, it’s the overabundance of such.
My frickin’ hell. Is the over abundance of overly redundant criticisms also on the list of anal rules around here?
regards,
widdley
Hey Look, All,
I hate to bow out on this little exercise in absurdity but all good things must come…yada yada. The discussion has trailed off into something I’m not interested in pursuing.
Eleanor, I loved your stories!
regards,
widdley