This is very common in New York, and I’d suspect anywhere with a more aggressive driving culture.
I’ll rely on the posts that followed as my cites. There’s rules, and there’s rules of the road. The rule of the road is get through that intersection.
I do understand the culture shock that can occur. I spent a year in the LA area, and was shocked by the concept of left turn on red. If you peel out when the light turns green, and Jon or Ponch sees you, you’ll get a ticket. In NYC, if you peel out tires screeching, back end swaying, barely missing the jaywalkers on the cross street, the cops will say to each other, “Cool move! That guy knows how to drive!”.
Couple times actually. Been all over the country driving and had never seen it until my daughter moved to Pittsburgh four years ago. Saw it there repeatedly and had never seen it again until last week in Hawaii.
Wiil say that my travels have been predominately west and/or south of Boston and Phil.
The courtesy aspect mentioned above also extends to the second and third cars in the left turn lane who are more likely to make it across on that green as well.
I think that kind of left turn was legal/recommended at one time; forbidden as laws became more uniform. I once rode with a fellow who stopped in the left turn lane, and gunned his Oldsmobile straight across when the light changed. (hoping the next guy didn’t have an Olds too!) I thought it rather dangerous, but he was my banker.
Hmm…I don’t ever recall seeing it in Chicago proper or the suburbs. (Particularly since most major left turn lanes are protected by an arrow). Not saying it doesn’t happen, but in my experience, it’s exceedingly rare. It surprises me this is considered normal driving elsewhere.
Personally, I tend to be courteous because others aren’t predictable. I’m on a bike. If I get to an intersection at the same time as a car on the cross street, I almost always stop and wave the car past before I go. The other day a driver seemed to be upset by this, since she had a stop sign and I didn’t. But the thing is, if we both go, it’s going to be a lot worse for me than it is for a car, and a driver can see me waving a lot more clearly than I can see a driver waving, so I figure it’s safest if I just stop and wait.
I agree that it is really a Dick move. And dangerous to boot. The guy does NOT have the ROW. I rarely see it in Denver but it does happen.
Driving is serious business requiring your attention., You should know when the light is about to turn green and look to see if the cross traffic is stopping. Come on, the cross traffic has a yellow and then the 4 way red. You are negligent and discourteous if you wait until the green to start checking cross traffic. Assuming that is what people are doing. Once somebody has stopped for a red light, they are blocking additional cross traffic.
I’ll recuse myself since this looks like it’s going to be one of “those” arguments.
Another vote for metro-Boston, here.
I am surpised no one has mentioned the sister effect of a lot of left-turn people lining up in the intersection while the light is green, but they’re blocked by oncoming traffdic, and then they complete their left turn after their light has turned red.
We got that too.
The principle (principal?) seems to be “Squeeze as much flow out of the system as you can…”
Not everybody is driving as though they have to stop a bomb from going off, Agent Bauer. Some of us are still driving as though there are other people on the road who might be … well, like you … and trying to avoid being killed by them.
That’s normal, though, isn’t it? I could swear in Illinois we were taught when turning left to pull into the intersection while the light is green and to finish our turn after the light has turned, if there’s no break in traffic. Otherwise, you’d have unbelievable traffic backups at some intersections.
I’d always heard of this as a New Jersey left, which does appear to have some popular usage. Pittsburgh is more common (though results below are obviously not dispositive). I think I’ve pulled this maneuver exactly once when I was in a massive hurry and the person opposite me looked to be a sloth.
“pittsburgh left turn” 43,000 hits
“boston left turn” 3,830 hits
“new jersey left turn” 2,440 hits
“philadelphia left turn” 7 hits
As mentioned, Boston has the strangest and most aggressive driving customs this side of the Atlantic. I find driving in Manhattan downright quaint and peaceful in comparison.
There is one really strange Boston area traffic innovation (or the lack thereof) related to this. There are a handful of blind left turn lights at some really busy intersections. They are exactly the same as a left-hand turn signals minus the left-hand turn signal. The light turns green in one direction of traffic before the other so that some cars can make a left turn before the incoming traffic gets their green light. The signals that have this feature aren’t marked as such (because that is exactly what the drivers would have expected us to do!). You just have to know the intersection perfectly and be able to count down seconds really well to know how much longer you have to be able to make that turn without being broadsided. You can only learn this through experience at that intersection and out of town drivers who happen to be at the front of the line will just sit there like any sane person would causing those with experience behind them to go ballistic. It is modern marvel of the WTF school of traffic planning. I don’t drive in Boston proper enough these days to remember where they laid these little traffic landmines and they could have altered the timing of them to mix things up a bit anyway.
I’ve done it and, assuming you do it in a reasonable way, I don’t think it’s unsafe or a dick move. Now if you’re flooring it and racing through your turn in front of an accelerating car, that’s stupid.
But if I’m going to turn left, the intersection is a large one with plenty of room, and the other guy is sitting there for a while before accelerating, why shouldn’t I go ahead and turn left? When there’s a real lag and the other guy clearly is not moving yet, I can begin and complete my turn before he even gets into the intersection.
The right-of-way question has been misrepresented here. Yes, the other guy has the right of way if he’s moving and there is a conflict between our paths, but if he’s sitting there for a while fiddling with the radio, I’m not usurping his right of way by going ahead.
Moving this contentious thread to IMHO from GQ.
samclem , Moderator
I live in Pittsburgh, have seen this many times before and do it myself occasionally… Go figure…
Wow! This concept is so foreign to me. The few times I’ve seen it in my life I assumed the other guy was being a daredevil or a thug. Maybe they were just from the NE.
I wonder if this happens more at intersections of two lane roads(one lane going each way) rather than 4 or 6 lane road intersections like we have mostly in the(or my) suburbs. When someone says the word “intersection” I usually think of a larger one. In the case of an intersection of two 6 lane roads, the person taking the Pittsburgh left(thanks for the research neuroman) needs to drive towards the car coming in the opposite direction for three car widths plus the median before(or while) turning. Plus he’s cutting in front of up to three cars instead of one. I still can’t imaging that being safe. Am I right or is someone going to come by and blow my mind again?
I think I now know how the PL may be necessary at those smaller intersections. If the first person at the light is turning left, then everyone else on the road behind him is blocked for the entire cycle of the light if he doesn’t do it Pittsburgh style. And if there is only one car coming in the opposite direction then it should be pretty easy to judge.
My working theory is that this is more common in NE because the cities were laid out before the ubiquity of cars, hence narrower streets and more two lane road intersections. Oh the insanity of having major thoroughfares through the city that are only two lanes wide, but since the older cities weren’t originally planned around cars, they didn’t have the choice. In the younger cities, especially in suburbs where I have always lived, the main thoroughfares are much wider.
Fascinating. I encountered it relocating to NY from CA (saw it very rarely there). I have come to think of it as an “East Coast Left” - just on my own. Reading this thread puts it in a better context.
It is unfortunately common in my area (just above NYC) - it is probably the main thing I hate about NY drivers, who are otherwise good-but-agressive, in my experience.
The rude danger of it makes it seem like such an obvious dick move, so seeing it so often makes me wonder what they are thinking.
You’re right. The PDF version of Illinois’ Rules of the Road states (bottom of page 22) that you must yield: “To oncoming traffic when making a left-hand turn. If you enter an intersection while the light is green, you may finish your turn even though the light turns red.” This both prohibits this “Pittsburgh left” move and allows you to move into the intersection on green to wait for the turn.
And count me as another person who doesn’t recall seeing this maneuver in or around Chicago. If anything, my usual gripe is with people who are daydreaming when the left arrow comes on (at intersections that have it) and are so slow at moving that only a couple cars get through on the arrow.