Nonsense. Everyone knows left turns are illegal here.
But three rights make a left…
Wrong…such left turns, in the proper place, definitely move traffic along better. We’re not talking about large intersections where there is any chance of somebody powering thru it. We’re talking about a very slow moving intersection where the drivers are or should be wary and have plenty of time to react to anything another driver does.
Granted… a PL in the wrong place is very dangerous.
Somebody mentioned the Left Turn Must Yield on Green sign that you see occasionaly. That would rule out a PL and makes me think that the possibility has been addressed by the traffic people.
You mean like not paying attention to who has the right of way?
The safest way to drive is to be predictable and also mind other peoples right of way. The PL is not expected and is a dangerous and dick move.
I can assure you that there are plenty of pedestrians and bicyclists in Pittsburgh. This city has a huge number of students, most of whom are not exactly rolling in cash. There are plenty of people walking around in most of the areas of Pittsburgh proper, including Oakland, the Southside, downtown, Squirrel Hill, Shadyside, and Lawrenceville, just to name a few.
And yes, I have almost been run down by assholes trying to pull a Pittsburgh left more times than I can count. Seriously, Pittsburgh is more dangerous for pedestrians than some of the countries I’ve been to where traffic lights are considered more of a suggestion. At least in those countries you can count on red lights being ignored–in Pittsburgh, *most *people do actually obey the law, but a few don’t. You never know when an attempt to cross a street at the cross signal will result in some asshole attempting to run you down. I’ve actually had people honk and/or curse at me for daring to cross the street on a walk signal.
Wrong…the PL is expected by most in the intersections that I am referring to.
Nor is it a “dick” (selfish) move as it benefits those behind you and the traffic flow as a whole.
Remember…we’re talking Pittsburgh; not Colorado.
As a Pittsburgher, I probably would have agreed that the Pittsburgh left is a 100% dick move before having the context that driving in this city for years has given me. We certainly have our share of jerks who do things like drive straight through an intersection from the left-turn only lane so they can rush around the cars going straight. But we seem to have more than our share of kind drivers. One of the things I see more frequently in Pittsburgh than anywhere else I’ve driven is a driver yielding the right of way to someone who’s stopped (at a stop sign, coming out of a parking lot, etc.) so the other driver can enter the flow of traffic. I believe it’s from that tendency that the Pittsburgh left arose. Drivers being waved to make a left turn by the opposing driver as soon as the light turns green happened (and still happens) so frequently, that it’s become the custom (at certain intersections, almost never across two lanes of opposing traffic). Typically, the driver going straight isn’t just caught unaware and slamming on the brakes because someone is turning left in front of them. They are waiting for the car to turn left. In fact, I have been given the finger by a driver who had the right of way because I didn’t make the left in front of him (I wasn’t used to it yet). Now if the second car makes the left, he’s always a dick (unless it’s the intersection of Murray and Forward and Poccusset and he’s turning left from Murray onto Forward towards the parkway).
The fact remains that people are not respecting the rules of the road.
It may help the flow of traffic for those that are turning, but it slows down those going straight. Therefore, I think that it’s not only breaking the law, it’s selfish.
Quite a few people seem to agree.
In most intersections with a single lane, if you are making a left, you can pull into the intersection and over to the center, allowing the cars behind you to pass by on the right and through the intersection. This was discussed recently in another thread.
For those of you unfamiliar with Pittsburgh, it is one of the most challenging cities there is to drive in.
Yep. But that’s not what is being talked about here. It’s not about blocking the people behind you going straight. We are talking (mostly) about dedicated turn lanes. And people not respecting the ROW of those going in the oposite direction. But you are right. With one lane in each direction, it’s very very rare for traffic going straight to not be able to sneak around you.
No argument there. I live in Colorado, but my Wife is from Pittsburgh. I get to do all the driving when we go back about once a year. It’s interesting, you don’t give directions like East or North. There is NO straight road in Pittsburgh so cardinal directions are useless.
Between the bridges, and hills, it’s quite a ride.
Actually, I don’t think we are talking about dedicated turn lanes (I wasn’t when I started the thread) and it has alot to do with someone behind you who wants to go straight but has to wait for you to make your left.
I’ve never seen it in that circumstance. I’ve only seen it when someone jumps across traffic from a left-turn-only lane.
When there’s only one lane in each direction, what I’ve seen is the left turner pulling into the intersection to wait and the people going straight just driving around the right side of the left-turning car.
Well then, my mistake. There has been talk about green arrows and such which only happen on dedicated turn lanes. Sure seems to me that folks are talking about jumping out in front of other traffic when they don’t have the right of way. Which would include when you don’t have a dedicated turn lane.
How many light controled intersections are there with only one lane in each direction that does NOT have a dedicated turn lane? I rarely see them. I can’t think of a single one where traffic could not get around the person turning.
I’m thinking more of the common city traffic where you have 2 or more lanes in each direction and a dedicated turn lane.
It’s a completely dick move, happens all the time in California, is illegal, and pisses me off. I’ve been nearly ran over by cars trying to pull it off probably 10 times. Here in California, there are such things as pedestrians. Pulling such a move your are banking on the driving competence of the driver facing you (not jumping the gun) and that cross traffic is not going to run the red light, which people do regularly to the tune of seconds. My conservative nature has managed to avoid a collision all these years, but rest assured, just because you made it through that intersection unscathed does not mean that others did not have to avoid your asshole move.
The fact that people who don’t live in Pittsburgh are more strongly opposed to the Pittsburgh left really just demonstrates why it’s a custom practiced by a greater percentage of drivers here than elsewhere. If you drove around town all day honking at anyone making a left in front of you, you’re more likely to be given a noise citation than change the way a single person drives.
And as others are confused because they’re considering dedicated left turning lanes and streets wide enough for cars to go around anyone turning left, I’m amazed that there are parts of the country where that is always the case. The streets in many Pittsburgh neighborhoods were not designed with heavy automobile traffic in mind and are therefore barely able to carry the volume they currently do. In Lawrenceville, for example, Butler St serves as a main artery that carries people from the surrounding towns/suburbs to downtown. It is one lane in each direction. It and its tributaries are narrow enough in many areas that it is indeed impossible to fit three cars into the two lanes.
Additionally, if you’re arguing from a safety perspective, going around a car waiting to make a left turn is probably more dangerous than making a Pittsburgh left. As you go around this car, any car in the opposing lane that approaches the intersection intending to turn left cannot see you (the view is obstructed by the car you are going around) and has a decent chance of broadsiding your car.
But the above paragraph is moot really. At certain intersections in this city, it’s generally done. Generally, being a Pittsburgh native, the driver in the opposing lane sees the left as an inevitability at worst. As in any situation, awareness of traffic signals and pedestrians is the responsibility of the driver. After witnessing the way people drive in Jersey and California, I think you’d have to be insane to try a Pittsburgh left in either state.
Actually, my statements about this traffic maneuver have bugger-all to do with Pittsburgh, its drivers, or its street system. I’ve seen it often where I live and when I have, it was being done by drivers in a dedicated left turn lane. I didn’t know until this thread that it was called a “Pittsburgh left turn” or anything like that. I don’t think we as participants in this thread need feel any obligation to restrict the discussion to the sociology and infrastructure of Pissburgh (as all my relatives and friends native to Pittsburgh pronounce it).
Fair enough. I suppose that as far as the maneuver goes, there is Pittsburgh where it is a part of the culture and is so common it is named for the town. There is, then, the rest of the country/world that has a more sane street system or more aggressive drivers where you’d have to be a dick to try it. As a resident of the former, I can only say and defend the point of view that it makes sense there and that it seems both unsafe and unnecessary in the latter.
Looks like I got my answer then…thanks all!
BTW… I love Pittsburgh…my daughter just moved and I’m going to miss visiting.
I’ve been paying close attention to how people behave in a situation such as the OP stated for the last week and I want to report back.
Around here (here being Northern NJ) the Pittsburgh Left seems to be SOP, and no one seems to get annoyed by it. We don’t have nearly the number of jughandle turns that you see in other parts of the state, so people usually allow the first car waiting to make a left to do so right when the light changes.
To get home every day I need to make a left to get onto the side street I live on from a larger, busier street and whenever I am the first car waiting to make a left at that light the person going straight lets me make the turn in front of them 98% of the time.
I also let people make the left if I’m the one at the head of the line of traffic and I’m going straight… it just seems to be the best thing for the flow of traffic overall. If I wait a few seconds they can make their left safely, but if I don’t they need to either hope for a break in traffic or sit in the intersection and complete their turn when it’s actually red.
YMM, as always, V.
At this intersection that I drive through every day (in Twinsburg, OH), it’s extremely common to make one of these left turns from Ravenna Rd going Northwest onto Shepard Road South. In large part due to the distance oncoming traffic needs to go before they’d hit you.
Other than that I can’t say I’ve seen it very much.