On the name thing: I’ve had it pointed out to me that many people fluent in English as a second language, with accents that are otherwise diminished or gone, can still fall back into a thick one when using proper names from their native country. It would be like me learning fluent German, but then talking about Louisville, Kentucky. Without mentally checking myself, odds are good I would simply default to Loo-A-vul.
zelie zelerton that would be Dun Laoghaire.
Actually, you make a valid point. When you are in someone else’s country it is actually a courtesy to pronounce their place names the way they like them to be pronounced…even if you share a common language!
My life would be more pleasant if tourists would learn to pronounce the names of places and attractions they wish to visit before they visit them. That way I don’t have to give directions for “Kelly’s book”, “Jim and sons Distillery”, “Cannoli Station”, or where to get the bus for “DON-ee-gal”.*
*Better known as:
The Book of Kells
Jameson’s Distillery (jame-son’s)
Connolly Station (CONN-oh-lee)
and Donegal (dun-ee-GAUL)
I’d say “i-bee-za”, where the i is as in “if”. But Americans (including myself) generally study Latin American Spanish, and the Castilian lisp sounds funny to us. I wouldn’t try to approximate it, even if I were speaking Spanish.
Ibiza is a popular holiday getaway for British people, but not so much for Americans, so I don’t think there’s a real “accepted” pronunciation here.
OTOH, I do pronounce “Cancun” as “Caaaahncun”, just because I think the general American pronunciation (where the first syllable is pronounced like “can”) sounds horrible and grates on my ears.
Because that’s how it was originally transliterated, and it’s remained that way because that’s how English-speakers know that name. However, when someone introduces themself as Yitzhak, it’s only polite to call them Yitzhak, instead of Isaac. There are about a zillion examples of this. In English, we say “Bethlehem”, in Hebrew it’s “Beit Lechem”. In Arabic, it’s Beit Lahm". In English, we say “Jerusalem”, in Hebrew it’s “Yerushalyim”, and in Arabic it’s “Al Quds”. And no, I would not use the Hebrew name unless I was actually speaking Hebrew. The purpose of language is to communicate, not to confuse or impress.
It was a rhetorical question. Nevertheless, it drives me up a tree.
[hijack]Ibiza is the Spanish/Castilian name, IIRC the locals and other Catalans use their name - Evissa.[/hijack]
Re: pronunciation of Ibiza
eeBEEsah
Not ‘eyeBEEtha’, as most Brits pronounce it, and definitely not ‘eeBEEtza’ as in that stupid song.
I don’t have a GD-worthy reason for it, but I instinctively think it’s pretentious. I think part of it is basic understandability. If I went around here in the US talking about Yuh-te-buh-rry (bad phonetics, sorry), how many people would know what city I was talking about? Firenze vs Florence. Which is going to be more understandable to a native US citizen?
Anyone else remember that SNL skit with the newscasters repoting on Mehico and Hwatamalaa, then ordering out Mexican food in the pretentious accents? I’m blanking on the details, but this thread popped it up in my mind.
And, as I say above, it might actually be quite a bit easier than the alternative, in an international crowd. Pretentious? It’s economical!
The Italian cities you mention, we use the French names for, and the French names evolved in the same way the Italian ones did. Those cities had Latin names way back during the Roman Empire, and when the Romance languages subsequently formed, the evolution of place names followed the evolution of every other word by developing differently in different places. Most of Europe is probably the same way - there have been names for things for the last God-knows-how-many-thousand years, and those names change with the vagaries of linguistic evolution. It’s not like we just decided one day to stop calling it “Firenze” and start calling it “Florence”. In actuality, everyone decided over centuries to stop calling it “Florentia”.
I definitely recall a “Weekend Update” joke along these lines involving Victoria Jackson, is that the one you’re thinking of?
I never met a Thai that didn’t know Bangkok was Bangkok and Krungthep… was Krungthep… They use Bangkok if speaking English, and Krungthep (shortened) when speaking Thai. It’s like the short, long and really long versions of Los Angeles. Also, Bangkok was the name well before it became Krungthep… Sort of like how the California Angels are now the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim. Nobody except for team officials and other people that absolutely have to use the new long name. They’re just the Angels.
Admit it, TellMeI’mNotCrazy, you had to look up the long name for Bangkok, didn’t you? Oh, and did you ever get your mail?
Actually I just C&P’ed it from the person who originally referred it to it; trust me, I don’t have that memorized 
And yep, got my mail just this afternoon, in fact, was going to email you to let you know it had arrived safe and sound 
Got a few plans in store for my, er, visitor!
La WooT!
[/hijack]
It’s definitely pretentious, irritating, and you should slap the teeth out of her fucking head next time she does it.
If we’re in america having a conversation in english, it makes you an asshole to insist on doing that. The only reason to do it is to look “cultured” and “worldly” instead of “a simple American, like you.” Fuck that.
Actually, it’s pronounced val-puh-RAY-zoe (as opposed to the Chilean city, which is approximately bahl-pah-RYE-soe). Valpo (VAL-poe) is a shortened version of the name – in broadcasts of the university’s basketball games, for example, you’ll hear “Valparaiso” and “Valpo” alternately, as you might switch between “North Carolina” and “UNC” in a similar context.
[Harvey Birdman]“Did you get that thing I sent you?” :dubious: [/Harvey Birdman]
(Sorry.)
I understand this point of view, though not to the extreme of dental atrocity.
Seems there are two pieces to this puzzle.
One; using the correct native pronunciation as a hip currency, usually upon travelling in the country in question. Guess that can be read as annoying, in the sense of “I’ve Been there, am now in the know, and will now enunciate the proper exotic tongue to y’all plebes.” Yep, annoying.
Two; as posted, why did Anglos change the pronunciation in the first place? To fit the tongue, sure, but that came with a huge dose of world-conquering arrogance. Peking, Bombay, once you’re the Lords, you can pronounce it any way you want, even a little smack of satisfaction that the conquested city has to bend to your tongue’s willingness to understand the local lilts.
In that regard, I’m glad to see an awareness of English speakers to honor the original language pronunciation of the world’s cities. Especially since Beijing and Mumbai are now roaring up in our rear-view mirrors as serious business contenders. Every business school student better learn to pronounce 'em right.
Just on the Bangkok thing…
Of course the Thais know it is Bangkok, and will use that in English, but in Thai it’s not a choice between “Bangkok” and “Krungthep blah blah blah blah.” It is simply Krungthep to them. In this case the distinction is important, as I believe Bangkok is also used in Thai as well as English, but in Thai it refers to a specific precinct in the city.
I can understand how the evolution of changing Peking to Beijing came about, since the latter is a little closer to the “official” pronunciation. However, it is ridiculous to suggest that we should use native pronunciation for non-English cities. While it’s true that Firenze is probably not that challenging, I’m damn sure that very few people are going to avoid mangling my father’s birthplace of Llanelli (in the aforemaligned Wales).
There’s nothing wrong with having Anglicized versions of foreign names. And perhaps it can even be a good thing; many Japanese find the English-style three-syllable pronunciation for Tokyo pretty amusing and/or cute, for instance.
I don’t know. I just can’t get myself worked up over it. Sure, it’s pretentious, but who cares? It’s not something I would do myself, no. But it’s not harming anyone for them to come back from someplace and use their newfound fancy accents. They didn’t speak that way before, right? So what, they learned something new. Who else are they going to show off to?
If they were really, truly doing it to try and act like they were better than you, big deal. Are they really better than you somehow? No, of course not. Laugh and shake your head. They will go around making fools of themselves all on their own.