Something has been bugging me, and I notice it more and more. As an example, I have a friend who is smart, sweet, and fun. But I think she can be a bit pretentious. When she comes back from Europe I ask her " How was Florence?" She replies " Oh, Firenze was magnificent!" Then I say " What did you think of Turin?" She replies “Torino? Loved it! And then we flew to BarTHelona, and then went to IbiTHa. I absolutely adore Spain” Me:“You mean Espana?” Her: “Huh?”
Okay, I get it. You’ve been there. You’ve learned how the locals pronounce their cities. You may have even tried the language. But in English, Torino is Turin. Maybe I’m wrong. Anybody want to set me straight?
I’m not sure it’s pretentious - sometimes it’s fun learning how to say something like a native. I hear it on the news occasionally, though. When a news anchor says it, it’s pretentious!
I also think it’s pretentious when the natives of a particular country insist we all start changing the name of their cities and countries when we speak in our own language in our own country. Why can’t we say Peking or Bombay anymore (we don’t say Roma or Deutschland. They are actually missing the point that if we have taken the trouble to have our own name for a place, then it is something of a compliment to them.
Yeah, I think it’s kinda stupid. Yeah, you went to Paris. But you don’t know French and you’re in an English-speaking country. Pronounce the fracking S. The correct pronouciation isn’t the grossly distorted Paa-REE you’ve managed to come up with anyway. In particular, you are completely hopeless when it comes to the French R. Say it with me! Pa-HHHHHreee. Pa-HHHHree. Come on. It’s at the back of the throat. No, not like that. Pa-RRHHHree. Pah-hrhrhrhreee. There we go. Say it 50 times. After that’s let’s work on your “Teww-er Ayef’ll”.
I often find myself in a group of people hailing from three or four different countries. Sometimes, everybody’s got a different word for some-or-other city, and it gets confusing as Hell. Some day I’ll be able to pronounce München properly, and I’ll be happy to leave Munich behind for good. Reallly, why is it so difficult for us to just use one name for a city or country? Deutchland even shaves off a syllable. I think it’s far more difficult to keep in mind that there may be several names for the same place, and you may have to remember which one you should use depending on who you’re conversing with.
If she talks about BarTHelona or IbiTHa again, point out that the language of Catalonia and the Balearic Islands is Catalan, and Catalan doesn’t use the “TH” sound - that’s a Castilianism, and all the hip people know that you don’t do that in Catalonia.
Oh, I don’t think that’s pretentious. What’s pretentious, it seems to me, is changing the name of the city in the first place.
I mean, why did we have to change Roma to Rome? So it’s got an A on the end of it–how hard is that? It isn’t like the American tongue couldn’t handle it, unlike some others. (Wales–I’m looking at you!) Why did we change Firenz to Florence? It’s actually very confusing when you’re heading to, say, Turin from someplace in Germany–you don’t know what to look for on the German map.
The Capital city of Thailand is not known by the name Bangkok to the Thai people, the actual name in Thai is Krungthrepmahanakorn Amornrattanakosin Mahintrayuthaya Mahadilokpob Noparat Rajataniburirom Udomrajanivej Mahasatharn Amornpimarn Awatarnsatis Sakatadtiya Wisanukamprasit,
I think it’s a little misleading to say that it’s not known by Thai people as Bangkok, because that is the widely accepted name now. It’s not as if Thai people are sitting around referring to Krungthrepmahanakorn Amornrattanakosin Mahintrayuthaya Mahadilokpob Noparat Rajataniburirom Udomrajanivej Mahasatharn Amornpimarn Awatarnsatis Sakatadtiya Wisanukamprasit when they speak Thai to each other, but shorten it to Bangkok when speaking to foreigners. It’s Bangkok. Just like Rhode Island’s name is actually “Rhode Island and Providence Plantations”, but Rhode Islanders don’t actually call it that.
Yep, I think it’s usually pretentious. (I like the idea of calling it “Trebeking.”)
I disagree; it has nothing to do with the American tongue – those foreign place names were set in English well before the New World was created. If it is pretentious, than all countries and cultures are guilty of it – “Los estados unitos,” “Gli Stati Uniti,” “Die Vereinigten Staaten von Amerika,” etc.
How about non-Anglo last names? Say you have a Hispanic-American who speaks English fluently and maybe doesn’t even speak Spanish, but pulls out all the stops with her last name – not just the basic pronunciation, but the accent, the rolled R’s, etc. (ala Alex Trebek and most newscasters)? Do you think that would be pretentious?
Oooh, this drives me crazy. My junior year of college, most of my friends scattered and studied in various parts of the world. I went to Australia, and many of my friends went to Spanish-speaking countries. They all came back talking about how wonderful MeHico and ArHentina had been. I didn’t insist on saying “Austrahlya” all Steve Irwin-style. It seems silly to affect the native accent to pronounce a place name, no matter what language they speak there. I’m sure the people saying Pah-ree wouldn’t say New Yawk or North Carolahna.
There’s a woman on CNN that does this. I can’t remember her name, but during her entire piece, she speaks with the stereotypical “Newscaster American” accent, but once she starts saying her name, an extremely heavy Spanish accent pops out. The difference is so jarring that it drives me crazy every time, and yes, I wonder if she can even speak Spanish. It just seems so affected.
Generally speaking, I hate changing proper names. There’s just no purpose to it, and it makes people stupid. A friend of mine is called Maria and went to the US as an exchange student. The guys she talked to couldn’t grasp that she had the same name as the mother of Jesus, 'cause everyone knows the virgin’s name was Mary.
Having said that, when a name has already taken root, like Rome or Florence or Venice or Paris, let’s just use it and be done with it.
Sidenote: Why the hell is the biblical Yitzhak called Isaac, while Yitzhak Rabin is (well, was) called Yitzhak? Those things drive me completely up a tree.
When I speak English when talking about cities in Germany, I usually use the English name for it, with some exceptions. I will use Munich, because München just throws a lot of people.
However, I will NOT use the English variations of:
Nürnberg (I mean, reallly…is it hard to use an N…why use an M (Nuremberg)
Rheinland-Pfalz. It’s the state I live in, and the English translation is Rhineland-Palatinate, which just sounds completely idiotic to me, so I WILL not use the English…it’s Rheinland-Pfalz, and that’s it!
I also will use the German pronunciation (with American accent…I won’t throw in a fake German accent to sound like an ass) for cities that don’t change in English, but have different sounds in English and German. For instance…Würzburg starts with a V sound, and the Z sounds like ‘ts’. It drives me batty to hear it pronounced with W and Z sounds…just sounds silly. Of course, I had 6 years of German before moving here, and most Americans I meet over here just don’t have the background.
OK. When I’m speaking English to an English speaker, I use the English names / pronunciations – Mexico (MEX-i-Co), Argentina (Arj-in-TEE-na), Valparaiso (Val-PO, in Indiana – like KAY-ro, Illinois), Munich, Cologne, etc.
When I am speaking Spanish, I use the Spanish names / pronunciations – México, Londres, Nueva York, Bahd-say-LOAN-a (not Castellano, though. I don’t lisp the C and Z like they do).
When mixing the two, I use whatever comes out. It usually comes out like El año pasado – por fin – fui a Londres. I flew out from New York, though, porque quería pasar una semana with my friends en Nueva York antes de leaving for London alone., but I also sometimes use the Spanish name in English and vice versa.
I’m not one of those like the OP’s example though. I would never say MaathREETHE (Madrid) or Espaaaaaaaaaaaanya or barthayLOANa to someone when I’m speaking English. And Firenze / Torino / Österreich / Köln / Krung Thep et al. are right out.
As for personal names, I use whatever the owner prefers. I know a Hernandez who gets the Anglo HURnanDez and another Hernández who gets the aird-NAN-des. I do hate it when the news lady changes it up though – there’s one on NPR who does it and it’s very distracting (“Blah blah midwest accent blah this has been meeDAHNda bedaCRUZ de la OHya cardiNAL…”)
Ibiza…how on earth do Americans pronounce it?
I’ve only ever heard the British “eye-bee-tha”.
But yup, when I’m speaking French, German, Italian or Spanish I’ll use their version of place names (including their pronuncitation of irish and British place names). When I’m speaking English, the English version. Otherwise it’s awfully pretentious.
Ditto on the ibiTHa thing - never heard it pronounced otherwise (except for that awful Ibeetsa song).
Generally i figure, when in Rome…but at home i’ll just use whatever the common parlance is. It is a little pretentious to do otherwise i guess. One exception - i would generally use Mumbai rather than Bombay - but that’s just cos my current home has a large population of Indian immigrants and their subsequent British families so it’s normal for round here.
That place that’s pronounced Dun-leary had me stumped for ages
