Placental mammal descent

Are marsupials a clade, or did placental mammals descend from them?

If the former, did both groups of mammals descend from a proto-mammal that was neither placental nor marsupial? That seems unlikely to me. I’ve read some talk about hypothetically incubating a cloned thylacine in a modern goat’s uterus; if the two types of mammals were both clades; I’d think they’d be too different for anyone to even be speculating about such a surrogacy.

If the latter, what is the most marsupial-like placental mammal? And what is the most placental-like marsupial?

And where do monotremes fit into the taxonomy?

It’s not completely clear, but the latest DNA and fossil evidence does not support the idea that placental mammals descended from marsupial ancestors-- it looks like both groups emerged at about the same time.

If you were to try and clone a thylacine, you would use a marsupial surrogate. I believe something like a Tasmanian Devil is what is being contemplated.

Okay, mammalian evolution is based on an extensive amount of theorizing founded on a relatively small amount of evidence. This is not to say it’s necessarily wrong, just that it tends to validate tentative hypotheses on relatively scanty evidence, and then change them, sometimes repeatedly, as new evidence comes to light. (Think of it as like a good detective novel or show, where the preponderance of the evidence points first one way, then another, then a third, as more evidence comes to light.)

For the first 150 million years of mammal existence, the various groups of mammals occupied econiches of small, probably nocturnal, insectivorous (and possibly fructivorous) roles. Anything larger was occupied by archosaurs. These groups are predominantly identified by their teeth, which are the best-preserved remains by and large, and which had characteristic cusp patterns. Among them are the docodonts, the triconodonts, the morganucodonts, the symmetrodonts, etc. Prior to any effort to reflect evolutionary lineages, they were grouped together as Subclass Prototheria, which was then abandoned as they came to be thought of as offshoots along The Road to Placentaldom. Quite recently, other studies have suggested that they do comprise a true clade, and resurrected Prototheria as its name.

The Monotremes almost certainly are surviving Prototheres, probably of a separate group without Mesozoic representation (unless I’m not up to date here) but closely allied to the Docodonts.

Late in the Jurassic, one group evolved to somewhat larger size, and a fruit-and-nut-eating lifestyle, convergent on modern sciuromorph rodents (squirrels, woodchucks, and relatives). These forms survived through the Cretaceous and past the K-T break well into the Eocene. They are the multituberculates (again a tooth-structure-based name) and were the sole members of Subclass Allotheria. What cladistics has done with them, I’m not sure.

Finally, in the Cretaceous, a group called the pantodonts evolved. As of the last I knew, they were considered either the common ancestor, or close relatives of an unknown common ancestor, to the Eutheria, the combined marsuipals and placentals.

To the best of my knowledge, marsupials are still considered a clade, but more and more evidence is mounting up to suggest a very early split into two groups, each of which split into two large secondary groups. Based on where most of their surviving members are found, the two main groups are the Australodelphia and the Ameridelphia. Both groups diverged widely and produced forms convergent with a wide assortment of placentals. Following the Great American Interchange at the end of the Tertiary, most of the larger forms among the Ameridelphids died off – the borhyaenids, thylacosmilids (marsupial sabertooth), etc. While I have not yet seen this, I would be totally unsurprised to see a theorist splitting the marsupials into two independently evolved clades.

The placentals definitely conmprise a clade – the common derived features shared by all placentals and absent from everything else including marsupials argue strongly for this. Within the placentals, however, the classic 22 orders have been largely tossed on the scrap-heap, and here is an enormous amount of DNA- and mt-DNA and new-fossil based theorizing about relationships. The one point that seems to have gained consensus is that the Xenarthra (AKA the Edentata: anteaters, sloths, and armadillos and their extinct allies) constitute a sister group to a clade of all other placentals. There is a scad of anatomical and genetic evidence pointing to this. Slightly-out-of-date accounts will throw the Philidota, the pangolins (“scaly anteaters”) in with them, but contemporary thought says otherwise.

Within the non-edentate placentals, there is a ferment of hypotheses about relationships, based in part on new fossil finds but even more on genetic markers shared by living forms. For example, the closest relatives of the Artiodactyls – the “even-toed ungulates”: pigs, hippos, camels and llamas, deer, antelopes, sheep, goats, cattle, and all their sisters and their cousins and their aunts – seem to have been the extinct Mesonychids, large hoofed carnivores of the earliest Cenozoic, and the whales and dolphins. The relationships are so close, in fact, despite external appearances, that a Clade Cetioartiodactyla has been created, the point being that a pig apparently is as closely related to a whale or dolphin as it is to a camel or yak.

Closest relatives to the primates (man, apes, monkeys tarsier, lemurs, and allies) seem to be the tree shrews and the colugos (“flying lemurs”, a name that like the Holy Roman Empire seems to have stuck despite failing on multiple groups). The term Scandentia is sometimes applied to the broad group and sometimes to the tree shrews exclusively. Depending on your theorist of choice, next closest would be either the bats or the rodents – unless someone has advanced a new theory.

I imagine that Colibri or Darwin’s Finch may have some more detailed (and possibly more up-to-date) comments on the placental-order shuffle. But I wanted to paint the broader picture to the extent I know it.

Marsupiala is a distinct clade from Eutheria (placental mammals). Based on this 1995 classification, we have the extinct palaeoryctoids as the sister group to the eutherians, and the marsupials as the sister group to the (eutheria + palaeoryctoid) clade.

Monotremes seem to form a clade with the extinct multituberculates, and this clade is the sister group to the (marsupiala + eutheria) group noted above.

Hopefully, someone with more knowledge of mammalian evolution can provide answers to the “marsupial-like placental/placental-like marsupial” questions.

I don’t believe there is such an organism, since they are each considered clades, which means all marsupials are equally distantly related to all placentals (and vice versa).

FWIW: There’s an interesting article in a recent Science News that (I believe) touches on this question.

Unfortunately the online version is viewable by subscribers only. Sorry.

So where do the duck-billed platypuses fit in?

Monotremes, along with the two (or five or six) Echidnas*.

  • The long-snouted echidna of New Guinea, Zaglossus, is a larger and quite different animal from the other echidnas, in genus Tachyglossus – either species aculeatus or multiple closely-related species, depending on the mammalogist you listen to.

I was thinking more along the lines of whether or not any fossils had been characterized as being located near the base of the Marsupiala/Eutheria split.

From wikipedia:

Damn you, the course of mamallian evolution!

It is difficult to determine since no surviving monotreme has teeth.

But the platypus young do have teeth, although they don’t fit neatly into the prototheria pattern. Still, monotremes are commonly classed under prototheria

Platypups got teeth?

You really do learn something new every day.

I’ve posted this link before, but it’s always fun to see if you haven’t before. It’s a gi-huge-ic mammalian “suprtree” (in .pdf format) which shows the current best-guesses of mammalian relationships. All of them. Well, the extant ones, anyway.

For this particular topic, Monotremes are the tiny black clade (you have to zoom in a lot to see them), just below the time scale, and marsupials are the orange guys just above it. As can be seen from the cladogram, both marsupials and monotremes represent true clades (and, of course, all the eutherians – aka Placentals – represent a clade as well). Monotremes first appeared about 166 million years ago, and share a common ancestor with the lineage that led to marsupials and eutherians. The marsupials and eutherians then branched apart about 150 million years ago or so. Note that at no time was one group ancestral to any of the others.

They dream, too!

Or, as I like to call it: the mostly rats and bats diagram. :slight_smile:

Cool.

And just as their complex brain structures developed parallel to but different from “normal” placental brains, they dream with their brain stems instead of their forebrains.

I think they are back to being my favorite beasties, at least for this week. I’l have to change my wallpaper from the armadillo in a sombrero to a platypus.

Thank you all, especially Polycarp, for those detailed responses.

My layperson’s impression of mammal physiology is that the biggest difference between placentals and marsupials (and monotremes, for that matter) is in their reproductive systems. That’s the most obvious difference, anyway.

Is there any speculation or evidence as to what the reproductive system of their common ancestor might have been like?

Apparently, there’s some fossil evidence of monotremes proper being present in the Mesozoic: A Three-Pound Monkey Brain: The Mystery of the Platypus

I think the closest you’re going to get right now are Eomaia and Sinodelphys, the earliest known placental and marsupial, respectively. Apparently the structure of the hip in Eomaia suggests it’s not a true placental (though it’s a eutherian) in that while it gave birth to live young, it probably did not have a true placenta, so it’s a bit more marsupial-like than modern placentals. I’ve also read that this may be true of multituberculates (again, based on hip structure)–marsupial-like underdeveloped live young.

I think you must be thinking of something else here. Pantodonta are members of Ferae, the mammalian clade which includes Carnivora, and are known (exclusively, to my knowledge) from the Paleocene. Perhaps you mean Pantotheria (these days known, I believe, as Dryolestoidea)?

Also, the clade which contains both Metatheria (marsupials) and Eutheria (placentals) is Theria.

Here’s a direct link to the paper mentioned in your link.