Please Bush. Get the hell out of Iraq !

[Master_Wang-Ka]

Well, y’know, if I could reduce central Texas to rubble, eliminate media sources, good information, and somehow keep the federal government out, it would certainly be easier to rule it myself.

This is what’s happening in Iraq. Saddam was a hardass dictator, and he kept people in line by shooting anyone who got on his nerves. This went on for decades. Now Saddam’s out of there, and the Americans are instantly pegged as wussies because they won’t shoot anyone who gets on their nerves.

So now it’s Despot Faire, everyone put on your King Hat, call out your followers, and let’s get to shootin’. Since everyone agrees that the Americans have got to go before any serious wrangling for power can take place, let’s set some roadside bombs, awright?

I will be amazed if anything resembling democracy lasts a year after we pull out. Either that, or we’re going to “pull out” the way we “ceased major hostilities” a while back – we’ll SAY we’re pulling out while simultaneously trying to garrison the place so the fledgling democracy can try to function awhile before all its members get shot. These people do NOT have any kind of democratic tradition, and I would not be surprised if they pitched it out the minute we cease to jam it down their throats, on the basis of the fact that it was an AMERICAN idea, and therefore can’t be any good.

And here we are trying to set up American-style democracy in a country that doesn’t want it, doesn’t understand it, and doesn’t like us there in the first place, and then we’re just gonna all go home and everyone will live happily ever after… :rolleyes:

All Hail Bush.

As to the thousands of Jews and Mossad agents… well… I seem to recall a poll taken in Saudi Arabia not long after 9/11 that revealed what most Saudis thought about it: namely, it was all a big Jewish trick, pulled off by the Israelis, to set the giant war dogs of America onto their Muslim enemies, and what was that about how 4000 Jews who worked in the Twin Towers just failed to show up for work that day for some reason?

What, Arabs can’t have urban legends? Seems like, given their media sources, they’d have more than most.

[World_Eater]

@Really Not All That Bright

It took less than twenty years after the Civil Rights Act for anti-black feeling to become an exception rather than the norm… comfortably less than “several generations”.

40 years and there are still plenty of problems, but I do see your point. I don’t recall people saying they wouldn’t rest until every single black person was burning in the fires of hell though. I think the barriers they’ll have to break over there will make the civil rights movement look like a cakewalk.

[cowgirl]

@Inigo Montoya

“rot in the ferment of their own blood .”
Yow! Well, I know an Iraqi or two, and they don’t hate Jews.

Heck, I know an Iraqi Jew. Imagine the trouble her family has at the border.

[UncleBeer]

And here we are trying to set up American-style democracy in a country that doesn’t want it, doesn’t understand it, and doesn’t like us there in the first place, and then we’re just gonna all go home and everyone will live happily ever after…

This strikes me as more than a little . . . narrow. Surely you are not suggesting that the people of Iraq can be expected to act and think as a monolithic entity? Surely there is a significant number of Iraqis who would like nothing more than a chance to live under a representative democracy, a significant number who really do understand what that means, and a significant number who are willing labor towards that end.

[World_Eater]

@UncleBeer

This strikes me as more than a little . . . narrow. Surely you are not suggesting that the people of Iraq can be expected to act and think as a monolithic entity? Surely there is a significant number of Iraqis who would like nothing more than a chance to live under a representative democracy, a significant number who really do understand what that means, and a significant number who are willing labor towards that end.

We may be giving them the goods, but I think they’ll just reject it because it’s from America.

[RTFirefly]

@UncleBeer

I’m saying that people bitching about the lack of results in Afghanistan and Iraq simply haven’t allowed a proper amount of time to pass before making their judgments. And that the proper amount of time which should be allowed to pass before making qualitative judgments can be shown, by extensive historical examples, to be generally far greater than an intervening government’s public pronouncements. So, despite what an intervening government might say, it should be be obvious to the people that it is little but propaganda; it should not be trusted, or believed, if one reasons from a proper historical perspective.

Of course, gripes about government propoganda are certainly, and nearly always, legitimate (governments derive their legitimacy almost solely from their honesty - they have no other real source of legitimacy), but it makes little sense for people to bitch about the results, or lack of, when there simply hasn’t been time for any meaningful results to appear.

Gotta agree with you here, Unc.

Of course, why are we in Afghanistan? For strategic reasons: we had to defeat the Taliban, at least temporarily, in order to attack al-Qaeda in Afghanistan. Why are we in Iraq? Because Bush, Rummy, Wolfie, and the rest of that crowd were obsessed with it for a variety of reasons. The problem is, while winning each war was fairly easy, it left us with an obligation in each country to at least make a good-faith effort to win the peace.

Like you say, we don’t really have but so much of that sort of long-term resolve in that department. One of the reasons I wanted the Bushies to at least wait another year before invading Iraq was so we could see how well we kept our commitment in Afghanistan before taking on another such commitment in Iraq. A year isn’t much, but we would have learned from it.

The weird thing is that we could at least give Karzai’s government the aid it asks for: they want $28B over 7 years - that’s $4B/year. Four billion dollars? We blow through that much dough about every two and a half weeks in Iraq. Damned if I know why we won’t do it.

And yeah, I’m a bit pissed that the Bushies routinely lie to us about how swell everything is now in both countries. I agree: nation-building is hard, it takes a long time and lots of money, and in a lot of places it won’t work even then. However, we were sold the war in Iraq partly on the Administration’s assurances that the aftermath would be a piece of cake, so they’ve painted themselves into a corner on this one.

[World_Eater]

@RTFirefly

However, we were sold the war in Iraq partly on the Administration’s assurances that the aftermath would be a piece of cake, so they’ve painted themselves into a corner on this one.

Or,

They didn’t sell anything, they LIED to us. Unfortunately this country consists of enough idiots who actually believed their bullshit and enabled them to pull off the sham of the millenium. As far as the corner they painted themselves into, well that’s one fucking nice jewel encrusted oil covered corner. What’s the worse that happens? Bush gets elected out, many of his buddies will enjoy the pile of money they all made off this, and then they all retire to the beach, filthy rich men. Culpability? ZERO. Meanwhile the little man gets fistfucked with his taxpayer money going to some money pit hellhole on the other side of the world, to support people that don’t even want us there in the first place. I could have gave one shat about SH, they should have left him alone. Now we have something much, much worse then SH. Too bad 50% of the country is so stupid they can’t even realize this.

[rjung]

@World Eater

Meanwhile the little man gets fistfucked with his taxpayer money going to some money pit hellhole on the other side of the world, to support people that don’t even want us there in the first place.

Don’t forget the Republican talking heads blaming the incoming Democratic President for the little guy’s aching tuckus. “Yeah, the reason you’re getting fisted is because John Kerry is trying to dig the nation out of the hole Bush got us into! Bad Kerry!” :rolleyes:

[Weirddave]

@RTFirefly

Gotta agree with you here, Unc.

<snip>
Like you say, we don’t really have but so much of that sort of long-term resolve in that department.

<snip>
I agree: nation-building is hard, it takes a long time and lots of money, and in a lot of places it won’t work even then. .

Not to scare you or anything RT, but I think you’re agreeing with me on these particular points.

[elucidator]

Well, its good news and bad news. The good news is that we’re only in Iraq as far as our ankles. The bad news is we dove in head first.

We can’t just leave. Lord knows, I would love a solution that is that simple and direct. We simply can’t risk that Iraq would descend into anarchy and civil war, even as I freely admit I have absolutely no way of judging the likelihood of that. That has the potential to turn a bad, bad situation into a catastrophe.

We will be spending quite some bit of time rehabilitating our reputation in the world at large. Perhaps the best, and most clearly sincere first step in that direction would be to chuck out the dipsticks who got us into this shitstorm.

Just a thought.

[London_Calling]

@UncleBeer

As to your specific example about the democratic elections in Afghanistan, well certainly if they take place on schedule and are not manipulated, that is a step in the right direction. But it’s only a single step down that very, very long road that Weriddave outlined. So, I guess, yes, that was exactly my point - the “far greater time” of which I speak is properly determined by a historical perspective, rather than propagandistic government pronouncements.

‘course the interesting thing about Afghanistan is that the US had no interest in so-called ‘nation building and so handed the whole place over to the UN and Hamid Karzai at the earliest opportunity – hell, British troops swapped their fighting helmets for pale blue ones while the US still thought ObL was in the eastern mountains. By “handing over” I, of course, mean administratively speaking, US troops do remain at Bagram and in the mountains in pursuit of-Q and ObL. But “nation building” they ain’t.

Interestingly, Bush does want to see elections there before November so as to tout it as another policy success. But it’s a UN operation and he can’t force the pace to suit his agenda.

Different game in Iraq where, not surprisingly, the US wasn’t as keen to hand over to the UN at the earliest opportunity. Bush suddenly got bitten by the nation building bug. Go figure.

[London_Calling]

@RTFirefly

The weird thing is that we could at least give Karzai’s government the aid it asks for: they want $28B over 7 years - that’s $4B/year. Four billion dollars? We blow through that much dough about every two and a half weeks in Iraq. Damned if I know why we won’t do it.

Well, it’s not that tricky. Write a list of the benefits to the US of helping out Afghanistan. Finished ?

Exactly.

It ain’t the US’s problem, leave it to those multilateralists over at the UN.

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

@elucidator

Well, its good news and bad news. The good news is that we’re only in Iraq as far as our ankles. The bad news is we dove in head first.

Now that is a good laugh(me, who at the age of 10 dove into a snowbank headfirst only to smack into a hidden upside down metal pail and split his head open).

We simply can’t risk that Iraq would descend into anarchy and civil war,

.

Isn’t that what we have now anyway? Any sense of whether it could get any better?

Just a thought.
[/QUOTE]

[Squink]

There used to be a German restaurant here in town, with a sign in the front wind proclaiming:
Our Wurst ist Best!

[UncleBeer]

They didn’t sell anything, they LIED to us. Unfortunately this country consists of enough idiots who actually believed their bullshit and enabled them to pull off the sham of the millenium.

I don’t think I’d go that far. Maybe the sham of the century. But the century is just getting started. And while this in no way is meant to let Bush off the hook for his misguided exploits in Iraq, U.S. foreign policy is rife with examples of militaristic meddling. This book Ruses for War outlines the many lies and deceits the U.S. has employed just since WWII as excuses for military action in countries with ideologies with which we don’t agree. And many where our interests are merely economical as well. Quite illuminating.

[gobear]

Surely there is a significant number of Iraqis who would like nothing more than a chance to live under a representative democracy, a significant number who really do understand what that means, and a significant number who are willing labor towards that end.

From Reuters:

A crowd of cheering Iraqis dragged charred and mutilated bodies through the streets of Falluja on Wednesday after an attack on two vehicles that witnesses said killed at least three foreigners.

The crowd set the two four-wheel-drive vehicles ablaze after the attack and threw stones into the burning wreckage.

Television pictures showed one incinerated body being kicked and stamped on by a member of the jubilant crowd, while others dragged a blackened body down the road by its feet.

The footage showed at least three people lying dead, while some witnesses said that four were killed. It was not clear how many people were in the vehicles.

As one body lay burning on the ground, an Iraqi came and doused it with petrol, sending flames soaring.

At least two bodies were tied to cars and pulled through the streets, witnesses said.

Some body parts were pulled off and left hanging from a pole, while two incinerated bodies were later strung from a bridge over the road and left dangling there.

It was unclear who was traveling in the vehicles, both four-wheel drives of the type used by foreign contractors, journalists, civilian members of the U.S.-led coalition and some military personnel. Witnesses said they saw anywhere between four and eight people in the cars before they were attacked.
Some of the victims were wearing civilian clothes, flak jackets and were armed, witnesses said, but that was not clear from the television footage. One of those killed had fair hair and was wearing khaki trousers and a white t-shirt.
As the victims lay burning, a crowd of around 150 men chanted “Long live Islam” and “Allahu Akbar” (“God is Greatest”) while flashing victory signs.

Well, at least the Iraqis know how to work together toward a common goal. I’m sure our efforts to install a representative democracy there will be a glowing success.

[Desmostylus]

@UncleBeer

I don’t think I’d go that far. Maybe the sham of the century. But the century is just getting started. And while this in no way is meant to let Bush off the hook for his misguided exploits in Iraq, U.S. foreign policy is rife with examples of militaristic meddling. This book Ruses for War outlines the many lies and deceits the U.S. has employed just since WWII as excuses for military action in countries with ideologies with which we don’t agree. And many where our interests are merely economical as well. Quite illuminating.

Sure, the assholes in charge can look back at the other times in history when the US has lied to its own populace, disregarded the laws of the US, disregarded the rights of US citizens, killed innnocent foreign citizens, misappropriated foreign proprty, etc. They can probably honestly say that they’ve achieved more in four years than those other assholes managed to do in 50 years. Quite an achievement, isn’t it.

[sailor]

It seems pretty clear to me how the Iraqis feel. I just saw some horrific video of a couple of cars being attacked, set ablaze, the occupants killed and their dead bodies being dragged through the street by a large crowd chanting “Allah is great”. Anyone remember Somalia?

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/hi/news/5025134.html

Iraqi rebels mutilate five foreigners in horror attack
AN Iraqi mob killed five people - believed to be Americans or other foreigners - in a horrific attack today. There were gruesome scenes as angry crowds dragged the bodies through the streets of Fallujah, dismembered them and hanged some of the mutilated corpses. A witness said the blood-thirsty mob strung up some of the bodies on an old bridge “like slaughtered sheep”. One man beat a corpse with a metal pole, while others put a cord around a body, tied it to a car and drove it down a street as a crowd cheered. The appalling blood-letting came after gunmen attacked the civilians as they drove by in two 4x4 cars in Fallujah, 32 miles west of Baghdad and a hot-bed of rebel activity. The five occupants of the cars were killed and their vehicles were set on fire.

[RTFirefly]

@London_Calling

Well, it’s not that tricky. Write a list of the benefits to the US of helping out Afghanistan.

Sure:

1. Keeping the Taliban from retaking control of a good chunk of Afghanistan. This is a benefit because:
   a) the Taliban are nasty fuckers whose radical version of Islam is part of the long-term danger to us; and
   b) the Taliban would be happy to invite al-Qaeda back in, if they haven’t already.
2. Because Afghanistan is prime opium-cultivating territory, and since we’re the biggest, richest market in the world for practically everything, including illegal drugs, this significantly affects us.

Finished ?

Exactly.

It ain’t the US’s problem, leave it to those multilateralists over at the UN.

Hmmm…I don’t see how you get that, given my list. It isn’t long, but it’s not trivial either.

[gobear]

Sailor, you’re a tad late with the news. See my post above.

I have been of the opinion tha tthew US owes it to the Iraqi people to help rebuild their country and help them become a peaceful, prosperous nation, but the insurgents are succeeding in making me think it’s simply not in possible to help people who hate us. I’m thisclose to thinking we should just pull out, let them have their civil war, but the rational side keeps saying that we need to persevere and show the Iraqis there’s a way out of this morass of violence.
And how much longer are supposed to keep repeating to ourselves that Islam is The Religion of Peace[sup]TM[/sup]? What with the arrests of Muslims in London that apparently stopped a Madrid-style attack, the large number of American mosques led by extremist clerics–85 percent according to Rep. Peter King (R-NY), and the association that Muslims themselves make between violence and their religion, I’m just having a very hard time here trying to think of Muslims as peaceful people. I know that there have to be peaceful Muslims who wish to end the cycle of violence, but they seem to be speaking very quietly, if at all. When I see Iraqis mutilating the bodies of dead Westerners and shouting “Islam is great,” it’s difficult not to make the connection between the two. YMMV.