They don’t deserve American blood. I no longer believe that there is any hope that these people can live peacefully and freely in a democratic manner and even if I did, their deeply held anti-Jewish views reminiscent of Hitler is so revolting, so utterly criminal, so inhumane, so despicable that they can rot in the ferment of their own blood .
If the CNN report I watched tonight is correct, a significant unintended consequence of the war is the unleashing of anti Jewish hatred that was somewhat held in check by Saddam’s regime. Fucking cowards, the only way they can achieve “security” and law and order is by allowing themselves to be subject to tyranny. Fuck, one of the most common criticisms of the American occupation is the inability to crush the lawlessness, Yeah, Saddam was pretty good in that department wasn’t he.
Anyway, the big fear is that there 200,000 Jews in Iraq buying up land. And 530 Mossad agents nosing around the country. Iraq is under seige.
Apparently, the Jews have duped Bush (they’re so crafty you know) into taking Iraq so that Jews can buy land (formerly illegal and probably still will be) and eventually expand Israel into the land between two rivers. If I understood the report correctly, these accusations are being preached by the clergy and believed by a majority of the people.
Did any of them think, just how come they learned of the exact number of Mossad agents in Iraq? Fuck, do they want to question this little fact ? Hell no, because that is what they want to believe. That is the proof of their irrational hate. There was a time when I thought that holocaust memorializing was a waste of effort . Unfortunately I was right.
don’t ya hate when you lose your tinfoil hat?
Umm…curious about this though. Saddam kept anti-Isreali hatred in check? I think you meant to talk about the actual checks Palestinian parents were getting if thier kids blew up themselves.
Held in check by the Baathists? Would that mean that the sheltering of abu Abbas (the Achille Lauro guy), the financial support for the families of dead Palestinians, including suicide bombers, and the Scud missile launches against Israel were all just a big scam to cover up Saddam’s love for the Israelis?
Then you suggest that all Iraqis should die in rivers of blood.
You’re incredibly ill-informed AND a racist fucking nutcase.
I’ve got a better idea. Rather than abandoning Iraq and letting it fall into chaos, how about we create an actual democracy there with freedom of the press? Then perhaps the population will become more moderate regarding Israel.
One of the reasons Arabs are so paranoid about Israel is because the Jews serve the same purpose for despots that they served for Hitler - as a bogeyman that could be used to deflect blame from the tyrants for the miserable condition of their people. Saddam, for example, did not suppress anti-semitism - he inflamed it. The Ba’athists spewed constant anti-Jewish propaganda. Remember the Gulf war? Israel stayed out of it, but that didn’t stop Saddam from firing missiles at Israel. Yeah, he was a real benefactor of the Jews.
The best antidote to anti-semitism is a free press and a rising standard of living. Make people feel good about their future, and they no longer have the need for a scapegoat. Free the press, and they’ll actually get to hear dissenting voices.
This thread is kind of funny, considering that a lot of people are worried we’ll leave too soon, that there’ll be an overwhelming temptation to haul ass out of there on the July 30 (or was it June 30?) deadline and leave behind a mess.
>I no longer believe that there is any hope that these people can live peacefully and freely in a democratic manner<
Well, FWIW, I never had that hope. Culture and all that.
But, to the heart of your post, what’s land going for over there now? And I bet you can get a house pretty cheap, huh?
Right. Just like Somolia. And Bosnia. And Haiti. And Vietnam. And Korea. And Cambodia. And Nicaraugua. And Panama. And, and, and . . . more often than not, any time any any government, not just the clowns we;ve elected here in the U.S., has interfered in the affairs of other nations. The real question here is why the people expect anything useful to come out of these interventions, wars, police actions, peacekeeping missions, whatever, when we can see by overwhelming example that that is so very rarely the case.
Or Germany, or Japan, or Italy,…and why is Korea on this list anyway, Seoul is pretty nice these days, and Vietnam is coming around slowly…
The real problem is that any meaningful change, if there is to be some, and it’s not guaranteed, takes years or even decades to establish. This Administration is, IMO, catagorically incapable of that type of long term planning, and the all-war-is-bad crowd don’t care about that either, an unusual convergance of polar opposites that dosen’t bode well for the future of Iraq. We had (have?) a real opportunity to put the Iraquis and Afghanistanians on the road to moderation in government and so far we haven’t done all that we needed to do because what is needed is as massive a commitment to winning the peace as we had to winning the war. Unfortunately, that’s a long, tough, dirty row to hoe, and it takes a leader with character to persue such a course. We’ve got Bush.
You’ve already nailed the reason Korea and Vietnam are on the list. Although governments promise stupendous results from their interventions in generally very short periods of time, that just isn’t the case. Korea and Vietnam and all those other places I listed were pretty sorry places to have to live shortly after the military interventions - some of them still are and will be for a very long time. As you said, it takes far greater periods of time than have transpired in Iraq and Afghanistan before results that have any meaning can be measured. So, it makes little sense for people to be bitching about the results, despite government assurances that “something wonderful” is happening, in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Hmm, I recently viewed a CBC(I think) program on the “exclusive” , “restricted” summer cottage subdivision called the Beach O’Pines on the shores of Lake Huron circa 1948. The wealthy anti-semites of that subdivision were feeling pretty good about their future I’m sure, and we had a free press back then.
Afghanistan’s Elections Postponed Because of Security Concerns
So, are these elections meaningless, or is the “far greater time” you speak of even greater than the government’s expectations? Could we be waiting for “something wonderful” until the sun explodes and the earth goes dim; a barren, sintered rock adrift in the vastness of space?
You’re missing the point, Squink. Or more likely, I’m not properly saying what I mean. Lemme see if I can clarify.
I’m saying that people bitching about the lack of results in Afghanistan and Iraq simply haven’t allowed a proper amount of time to pass before making their judgments. And that the proper amount of time which should be allowed to pass before making qualitative judgments can be shown, by extensive historical examples, to be generally far greater than an intervening government’s public pronouncements. So, despite what an intervening government might say, it should be be obvious to the people that it is little but propaganda; it should not be trusted, or believed, if one reasons from a proper historical perspective.
Of course, gripes about government propoganda are certainly, and nearly always, legitimate (governments derive their legitimacy almost solely from their honesty - they have no other real source of legitimacy), but it makes little sense for people to bitch about the results, or lack of, when there simply hasn’t been time for any meaningful results to appear.
As to your specific example about the democratic elections in Afghanistan, well certainly if they take place on schedule and are not manipulated, that is a step in the right direction. But it’s only a single step down that very, very long road that Weriddave outlined. So, I guess, yes, that was exactly my point - the “far greater time” of which I speak is properly determined by a historical perspective, rather than propagandistic government pronouncements.
Ain’t gonna happen. So now the question is how can we get the fuck out without causing too much damage? It will be decades until a democracy and free press (Britney and J-Lo on the front page everyday :rolleyes: ), and the cost in lives and in money is not worth it. We need to find a way out fast, and let the Iraqis deal with their own shit.
I don’t think you understand, that they really really really don’t like Jews. This will not change for several generations, just like people don’t like blacks or Asians, or whatever. If they are raised in an environment of hate, you can’t just flip it off like a light switch, only over time, lots of it, can the ignorance be phased out.
Hmmm, like Saddam was our boogyman, or Osama, or the Democrats, I can’t keep up these days.
Yes and you realize that at the moment this is nigh on impossible? Let’s try your suggestion in Gaza right now. You won’t free their press, hamas owns the place. Anyone who dissents will get their head chopped off and dragged through the streets. Anything they hear that they don’t believe in will be “lies of the infidels”.
No, the situation sad as it may be, is to pull the hell out and let history takes it course.
“rot in the ferment of their own blood .”
Yow! Well, I know an Iraqi or two, and they don’t hate Jews. I know a few WWII-era Germans, and they didn’t/don’t hate Jews either. The leaders of Early 20th Century Germany told their subjects that the Jews were hated, hateful and hateable. People were loathe to protest for a number of different reasons: fear, apathy, interest in the requirements of daily survival…and yes, some belief in the message. In a lot of ways Iraq looks a lot like pre-Nazi Germany.
In defense of the OP: It does seem like every day I see a headline where 20-90 people got blown up by a car bomb, kid bomb, dog bomb, RPG, etc. And I wonder to myself, “how many people can still be alive over there? Surely they must be running out of people to kill?” And it sickens me to think that the “occupation” soldiers and new government agencies that are being targeted want more death less than any party involved. A Line from Full Metal Jacket: “It’s like they don’t even appreciate what it is we are doing for them.” And for that, who can fault the OP for wanting to spare the lives of those who want the killing to stop? The obvious answer is along the lines of, “death is the price of peace.” And ya gotta not forget: all of “our guys” are volunteers who have accepted the dangers inherent in military service. They have knowingly sworn an oath to be the tools of The President. I can’t speak for combatants from other countries.
It took less than twenty years after the Civil Rights Act for anti-black feeling to become an exception rather than the norm… comfortably less than “several generations”.
That expansion is much better. However, I think we can look at significant signposts along the way, and try to discern which way things are heading. The delayed elections, and the recent upsurge in US troops in the region, suggests that we may have slipped into a “one step forward, two steps back” mode, rather than the preferred “two steps forward, one step back.”