Yeah I’ll bite, now prove me wrong. I don’t believe that US forces have mercilessly gunned down thousands of completely innocent civilians.
Thanks, gobear. Now we can move on.
I will be interested in seeing if and when the Iraqi masses mention if they were appalled by this, depending on who these people were (it’s not clear yet). I’d be interested in how many people actually participated in the lynching and how many were just coming over to see what the fuss was about.
It was absolutely horrifying but for me it reiterates the point that we cannot let these bastards take over Iraq. I have not reached the point where I believe that these animals in Fallujah represent the majority opinion of Iraqis. I must ask people to remember what we were told about the regular people of Iraq before the invasion–that they were civilized, creative, sophisticated, waiting only to get out from the yoke of dictatorship before they would come out and make the country great again. Oh well. Turns out the asshole component is much larger than we were told.
Does that mean write 'em off, they were this nasty all along and need a Saddam to keep them in check? We’ll see how they react to this incident. That’ll help form my opinion.
Ok, this is going to be fun.
So, please be more specific. I have asked the question several times. Do you deny American forces have killed thousands of Iraqis? Or are you admitting thousands of Iraqis have been killed but saying those Iraqis who were killed and injured were guilty of something? Please answer these questions so I may better address your points.
This thread, post #45. Stop being an asshole and either stand behind what you asserted with cites or admit you were talking through your ass and apologise.
I deny that thousands of Iraqis have been killed.
Now stop playing your puerile games and hand over a cite.
I do not deny that innocent civilians have been killed by US forces.
I believe we have the finest troops in the history of warfare with of the most advanced equipment known to man, knowing full well that killing innocent civilians not only is wrong, but is iilegal. They are under a media microscope over there, with the 24 hour coverage and embedded media, so I think they’ll want to steer clear of anything that could even be considered wrongdoing. Cutting down looters with swaths of machinegun fire included. :rolleyes:
So keeping the above in mind, I’ll wager that 90% of them were guilty of something.
Hope this helps, have fun!
I might. Then again I might not. This is the pit. But wait. let me read that again.
Are you serious? What fantasy world do you live in. I’ll tell you what: I’ll make a deal with you. I will supply a cite supporting my assertion that thousands of innocent Iraqis have been killed if you supply one that says it is not true. Which I am sure is very easy for you. And you know, I am familiar with google and can type words like “Iraq” and “innocent civilians” and such. So, will you produce a cite supporting the notion that few innocent Iraqis have been killed? If you do I promise to supply TWO cites, two, stating the opposite.
You are an idiot, and you’re full of shit. You made a statement, and you refuse to back it up. Demanding that other people provide proof that what you say is wrong isn’t how it works. You said it, now you prove it. You’ve pretty well demonstrated that you can’t, so go away, kid, this is the grown ups part of the 'net here, “because I said so” dosen’t cut it.
Well, that was my assertion, that innocent civilans have been killed.
Straw man. I have naver questioned the troops so please do not try to side track me into something which I am not arguong. The troops are as victims of this stupidity as are the Iraqis. The troops are doing their jobs at great cost. It is those who assigned them this job who are responsible for the damage. When GWB ordered the invasion he knew thousands of innocent Iraqis would be killed because it is inevitable in war. And yet he gave the order anyway. He is responsible for those deaths, American and Iraqi. The Iraqi fighter is as responsible for the death of American soldiers as the American soldier is responsible for the Iraqi death. They are both doing their duty which I admire. I loathe the man who made it their duty to kill each other.
I have an epoch shattering idea, post us some damn numbers like you said you would. You’re saying they’re high, and we’re saying they’re low. The numbers will straighten everything out, so get to work and stop wasting our time.
Anyone care for a cluster bomb?
No, no, no. That wasn’t the deal. You said that if somebody denied that thousands of innocent Iraqis had been killed by the US forces, you’d provide a cite. Now you’re weaseling. You can’t demand that other people do your work for you–if you a cite, use it or be dismissed as a fool. You claimed knowledge that you don’t have, so you’re a liar as well.
No, your assertion was that thousandzzzz of innocent civilians have been killed.
Not a strawman at all, as I assume the US troops are the ones supposedly killing the hoards of innocent civilians. I had to point out that we have gone out of our way to minimize deaths, using highly trained troops with state of the art technology. In addition to that, our troops are under the most intense media scrutiny known to man. They couldn’t get away with something even if they wanted to. To top it all off, the whole mission (the misguided intent I should say)is geared towards winning the hearts of the Iraqi people. That means they probably told the troops not to do any stupid shit that would piss them off in their day to day operations around Iraq.
I simply don’t believe that our troops accidentally killed thousandzzzz of innocent Iraqis.
I say accidentally because it’s either that or intentional, and saying our troops intentionally killed innocents is even more ludicrous.
By the way Squink, dozens or possibly hundreds does not equal thousands, but I’m sure you already knew that.
No, I never said I would do anything. I said I may or may not. I did say I would post cites if you did, but you haven’t. But look, I am going to post some links just because I’ve had them open for quite a while and what to close a few windows. If you post cites contradicting mine I will post more. So how about we start with cites from early on when the numbers were lower?
100 Names of Civilians Killed 27th May 2003
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/memorial/0,13313,952862,00.html
Ok, those are from very early on. The numbers have grown since then.
I now await to see cites disputing those numbers.
And as I have said many times, I am not blaming American soldiers who are doing their jobs and who are often victims of the same unfortunate war. i am blaming those who caused this war to happen and put those people American and Iraqi on fighting terms.
Yes, I believe over 7000 were killed in the early part of the war and the numbers have grown since then. of course, the US government is not helping in the task of keeping scores so I count that as one point indicating their bad faith.
Look, I have explained too many times already that I am not blaming the troops but those who sent them to fight an unjust war. If you don’t understand it then fine.
When a guy in artillery or tank or airplane is ordered to put his projectile on coordinates x,y it is ludicrous to hold him responsible. But when a man gives the order to invade a country for no good reason knowing full well that thousands of civilian casualties are to be expected, then I DO hold him responsible. So quit trying to make me say I blame the troops because I don’t. And if you don’'t understand it then you are too stupid to be in this thread.
Well I posted some links. care to contradict them? I say Americans have killed more innocent Iraqis than people dies in the WTC on 9/11. And I say I can undertand if Iraqis are pissed of and want to drive Americans off their soil. Is it too difficult to understand that a people who have been invaded by a foreign army which has killed many of them would want to drive the invaders out of their country? Becaue to me it makes perfect sense. I think Americans would do the same thing as most any other country. What is so difficult to understand?
This was posted by Redfury in a related thread
I do not find it difficult to understand that if my country was invaded and my people subjected to this kind of thing I would want to fight the invaders. What I do not understand is those who do not see Iraqi resistance as the natural response. Those who thought Americans would give out some peanut butter and Iraqis would love them. That’s what I don’t understand.
I had forgotten about the “Bring it on” comment. Wow. Really stupid thing to say.
What bothers me is that all this mess was forecast by many people and now, when it comes to happen, the pro-Bush crowd instead of blaming the government for getting into this mess and not heeding sensible advice, they get angry at those who predicted correctly and are now witnessing their predictions come true. As if the predictions are the cause of what’s happening. Well, you were so cocky and arrogant, don’t blame me if I remind you now that this was forecast by many. You arrogantly got yourself into it, now you can get yourself out of it. And no matter what you do you can never make right this mess, the thousands killed on both sides for nothing but a damn fool war.
Oh, sorry World Eater, I should have realized that you were going to get all nitpicky. You do know that the coalition put a stop to official counting of civilian casualties this past summer don’t you?
Well, I’ve seen cites that confirm your numbers and ones that put them in the 3,000 to 4,500 range. Considering both are in the thousands, which is correct is moot for our purposes, I concede the point.
I was more under the impression that you were accusing US soldiers of going around and killing civilians in cold blood. I was trying to say this simply isn’t true.
No debate from me here.
I’m pretty much in full agreement with you on the quote above, and your whole attitude towards this war, as my posting history will back up.
The numbers you were throwing around looked strange to me, and the only way to get you to throw them up was to challenge you to do so. I figured you probably had them ready to go as you wanted someone to challenge you directly so you could throw it right in their face. I hope I’m wrong, I’d hate to lose respect for a poster I agree with 99% of the time.
Squink, if you want to convince me that thousands of people have been killed, don’t provide a cite saying “dozens to possibly several hundred” have been killed, provide one like Sailor has. That’s all I’m saying.
Just so you know I was one one of the people who was against this thing from the very beginning. This was is totally wrong.
And I have seen more recent cites that put the number closer to 12,000 but, as you say, the numbers are not the crux of the issue. Having a foreign army march into your country killing people is enough to make one want to resist, regardless of the numbers killed. That was my point.
I have never said this because it is not the primary responsibility anyway. I have no doubt that on the whole the US army tries to be professional. At the same time I know they are human and it is very difficult to be dispassionate under fire. I have no doubt that attrocities have been committed by American forces just as they have been committed by every single combatting group that existed. I know some have been prosecuted which is as it should be. I also have no doubt that many others have not been discovered or have been covered up. It is human nature. You find it in police departments and you find it anywhere else where humans are in a position to use force. I am not judging the individuals who have committed crimes because that is not the purpose of the thread. The CinC who starts a war knowing these things are inevitable in war should have a darned good reason and in this case there is none.
Well, I am glad we could clear that up. Some people around here might be beginning to think I enjoy arguing. 