Not that we aren’t already way off the OP, but please put forward your anti-war POV now…
The Uniform Code of Military Justice makes it clear that nobody is required to follow an unlawful order. Even if it comes from the President of the United States.
Here, Hail Ants, I’ll give you some reasons.
I oppose this war for a number of reasons, but most importantly, because I do not know why we are in it. Is it because Saddam has nukes? Is it because he violated the UN? Is it because of terrorism? Is it because we want to liberate the Iraqui people?
I’ve heard each of these (and probably a few that I missed) at different times from different officials. Now I understand that it may be for all these reasons, but I’m yet to hear that from my leaders. Instead, I hear a mishmash of vague semi-justifications that do not give me a clear idea of why we are doing this and what we intend to do afterwards.
I need a straight answer. Without one, I cannot weight the benefits and costs. How am I supposed to know if our actions will promote peace and democracy when I do not know what our plan for Iraq is? I cannot make in informed decision about whether or not our reason for going into the war is justified and whether or not the desired results will be acheived because I have no grounds to make that decision on.
And the burden is on the government to explain why we should be at war. We are playing with human lives. I am going to assume war is a bad thing until I am given reason to decide it is a good thing. But I’m not even given something to make that decision on! So I can’t possibly be for it. So I am against it.
Is that a clear enough reason?
To avoid taking this thread too far away, because it’s a great thread and one that needs to be talked about on-topic, I’ll throw a few of the other recent threads your way, which I feel say something positive and meaningful towards the anti-war movement.
How are the Iraqis supposed to trust us? - Calls into serious question the right of the U.S. to try to “liberate” Iraq.
Will the War Unleash more Terrorism, or will it decrease it? - Questions the result of the war, whether it’s really going to help us “fight terrorism” or not. jjimm’s post sums up my view pretty well.
And an easy one: Why Should I Believe That This War is Wrong? - Mandelstam posts links to two excellent articles you may want to read early on in this thread, and Spiritus Mundi makes some excellent, brief points on the first page as well.
Basically, my reasons for being against this war (I’m not against all war, mind you) have been expressed ad nauseam, by myself and by others. There are lots of good, reasonable reasons to be against the war, in my opinion, but they’re not what you see on TV. I don’t want to hijack this thread any more than I already have by expounding on them yet again.
Stoid, sincere apologies… I won’t hijack your thread anymore, and I hope that your OP will be discussed at more length. My comments (way above) still stand for me.
On Preview: even sven’s response also mirrors many of my thoughts. The Bush Administration’s leapfrogging from one reason to another for this war is one of the things that troubles me deeply. They have not met their burden to explain their reasons for this war, clearly and consistently.
That is true, however the criteria of the term unlawful does not extend to disagreements in policy decision. Congress can ultimately determine whether this war was unjust, immoral and illegal and not finance supplies or more men. There is no legal authority that is calling upon the president to cease and desist this war, therefore the soldier, from pfc to Gen Tommy Franks, must follw the President’s order and get Saddam outta there.
Classically, the “support the troops” refrain is the equivalent of “shut up and keep in step.” It has little to do with the troops and a lot to do with silencing views not welcomed by the people who are in charge at the moment.
In the dim dark past there was a time when I was the troops. Worse than that I was the troops in what I then thought was a foolish war. By saying that the war was foolish was I not supporting my self? Would I have been justified in thinking badly of myself because I thought that I was being sent on a fool’s errand? Should I have shut up and not let me know what I thought? Was I wrong not to vote for Nixon because that would have amounted to not supporting the troops, that is, not supporting me? Do you suppose my morale was damaged because I did not wear a button saying “I support me?”
If I go to the farewell parade for the local reserve unit and wave a banner that says “I hope you all die, you baby killing bastards,” that is one thing. It is a much different thing to say that I should bite my tongue rather than enter into the political debate over the need for and wisdom of this particular bit of enhanced foreign policy. Supporting the troops has nothing to do with what some “support the troops” types want to happen. When faced with the spectacle of his nation perusing a wrong headed course the responsible citizen does not salute smartly and about face. The responsible citizen enters into the debate, calls a spade a spade and pays no attention to the calls for march into this foolishness in lock step, bleating like so many sheep.
A strawman is when you set up a fake argument that is opposed to you, and then knock it down as easily as you could a man you made of straw.
For example, a straw man would be that the only argument used against this Iraq situation is that “war is icky”
I’d like to make a minor hijack in opposition to ignorance and in defense of truth. A couple of times in this thread, the tired old bullshit about hairy peaceniks spitting on returning Viet Nam vets has reared its ugly old head.
It is a lie. It didn’t happen. In those dark days I spent a lot of time with the Viet Nam Vets Against the War. There were lots of them, lots more than current memory recognizes. Not one of them ever suggested that they had recieved anything other than sorrowful sympathy from anti-war type people. I personally knew literally hundreds of such people. Shrill, tiresome and self-righteous…perhaps. But we knew who to blame, and it wasn’t the victims.
I had hoped I’d heard the last of this odious bit of crapola, but it seems to rise up like a decaying zombie every once in a while.
As to our troops, I am content to believe they are no more stupid than any of the rest of us. That I can explain why I do what I do with sincerity and clarity, and am as likely to recieve an open minded acceptance from him or her as with any other randomly chosen American citizen. In many respects, even more so. It was true thirty years ago, I see no reason to believe it is less true now.
It just seems that those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to make the rest of us repeat it.
Well, the President answers to us, but that guy in the Oval office has said more than once that he doesn’t have to answer to anybody, and he doesn’t have to explain himself to anybody.
Listening to NPR this evening, they had a piece on some war protesters, I’m not sure where they were. Not far away was a gathering of people holding up “We support the Troops” signs.
One of the peace protestors was evidently speaking to one of the “support the Troops” people, and she was saying something like “We want to start a dialogue with you, we support the troops as well, we just do it differently.” and the STT lady responded “We don’t want any dialogue with you, we don’t want to talk to you, we support the troops, that’s all we want to do. If you support the troops, why arne’t you out here carrying signs that say you support the troops?”
Then the peace gal tried to answer her, and was informed again that “We don’t want to have a dialogue with you, we’re just here to support the troops.”
It’s this kind of thing that makes me really sad. God forbid we should find some common ground. It seems many people have taken Bush’s “Fer us or agin us” mentality very much to heart.
Well said, elucidator, as was the rest of your post.
I have to say that, while incidents of spitting on troops returning from Viet Nam were rare (or probably non-existent, as a couple of you pointed out), the anti-war rhetoric of many, especially students and drop-outs, was full of blame of the troops, even though many of them were draftees and had no chice in the matter to begin with. I believe that is the “shameful treatment” of which Stoid wrote in her OP.
Maturity and the growing wisdom of many of those 60’s war protestors has changed their minds about who is to blame for war and its casualties. Now pretty much everyone supports the troops, and some of us blame instead the intellectual and moral bankrupt who sent them to Iraq.
Sorry, no idea how that happened
Then **Diogenes the Cynic ** responds…
:eek:
This gave me the best laugh I have had in a while. Diogenes is unable to post in a “what’s your favorite recipe” thread without lashing out at Bush. For you to tell Ants that he needs to worry about his credibility is beyond rediculous.
Also, to answer some of the questions in the OP, we don’t need to look at pics off the newswires of anti-war rallys to find some pretty heavy anti-troop sentiment. It exists right here on these boards.
People in [and [url=http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=173080]this pit thread](]this GD thread[/url) have expressed the view that they want the war to go badly and for the US to have high casualties.
I think I see two different definitions of “supporting the troops” being used here:
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Doing things which help make the troops feel good about their current venture, even if you think it is a “damn fool crusade”.
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Doing things which will help keep future troops from being sent off on future “damn fool crusades.”
Admittedly, protesting the war is going to depress the troops fighting it. And, for their own safety, I hope that they don’t get much news of it.
But, I have a great admiration for the people who are willing to put on the uniform, earn a paltry pay to be shuffled from place to place around the world and possibly sent to fight and die when our country needs them. I respect them so much that I don’t want to see their lives thrown away frivolously.
And I think this is as frivolous a venture we have seen since the Bay of Pigs.
If, by my actions, I can help keep this strategy of unilateral pre-emption from becoming common practice, then I think I am showing my support for the troops. I sure feel that I am treating them with greater respect than their Commander.