I’ve been fascinated over some of the marches and protests and demonstrations taking place around the country and right in my back yard.
At least here in Portland anyway, there seems to be a problem seperating the feelings of support for the fighting men and women of the military from pro-war feelings.
Maybe I’m being unbelievably naive on this, but I guess I see it in a completely black & white fashion - the troops are doing a job they have been asked to do. They may have been asked to do that job by a group of politicians with questionable motives, but I guess the way I look at it is that you don’t get angry at the bullets in the gun, you get pissed at the guy pulling the trigger.
I guess my lot in this is to get shit on from all sides - I’m so against this damned war that it hurts, but I also have a very high level of admiration for the men and women who are willing to hang it out there and fight and die when called. Many of those men and women happen to be my friends and relatives, but I don’t think I’d feel any different if I knew nobody directly involved in the conflict.
I understand that emotional issues like this can blind people to basic things and change normally reasonable people into frothing partisans, but I wonder why people who are “pro-troops” are automatically labelled as “pro-war” - 'cause we aren’t all.
I think the two are equated because, at least in the UK, when sections of the media call on us to support “our boys” they are really saying support the war. Hamming out that old myth that in a time of conflict to criticise the government or its actions is treacherous to one’s own country.
I have no support for the troops, my tax money pays their wages, that is sufficient. They have chosen to take up the proffession of state-mandated killing and if they cannot accept that they shouldnt have joined up.
I do not support the troops, I do not support the war.
It is possible to do both but really the point of a rally is not to show the troops that we support them, its to show we support the war, to my mind at least.
They agreed to do this, right? What sort of person signs up to commit violent acts upon strangers at the bidding of people “with questionable motives”?
Well, to answer the OP, I think it’s precisely the idea that hawthorne put forth. I think there’s the stereotypical view of military personnel as people who like to carry big guns and shoot other people and as people who are, pardon the pun, gunning to go to war. Stereotypes about military folk abound as much as they do about other groups of people.
(I mean, when someone says, “My grandfather was an Army Colonel,” what kind of man/personality do you picture?)
Personally, I know quite a few people who signed up for a hitch in the military mainly to get money for school. In fact, my mother made the suggestion to me several years ago, after a friend’s daughter had managed to become a doctor with very little debt, thanks to Uncle Sam, but now she’s thanking her lucky stars that I laughed in her face. For several years in there, I think quite a few people who joined the military didn’t honestly see the possibility that they’d wind up in combat (remember the Selective Service ads, which emphasized that the U.S. hadn’t gone to war in eons?).
So regardless of my feelings about the war, I’m more inclined to think of military personnel as merely men and women with families and friends that they’d like to see again.
Are you serious? Or, am I just completely off base in my interpretation of this statement which is that you see a similarity between WWII and the current invasion of Iraq?
I think the “support our troops” sentiment morphes into the “pro-war” sentiment mainly because they cannot make the distinction between the two. Some people believe that unless you are supporting the reason that our military forces are fighting for, you cannot possible be supporting the troops. I disagree with that interpretation.
I think that supporting the troops and supporting the war are two distinct things. In the first, you are hoping and praying for the safe and quick return of the troops to their friends and family. You support the troops (which is somewhat of a misnomer since there are many people in our military who are not involved in the fighting but are just as in danger) as people with lives and futures to return to after they finish doing their jobs. In my opinion, it’s reasonable to see this as completely different from supporting the war (which, obviously, is supporting the reason for the war, the politicians who brought it about, and the way we moved to the point of conflict).
A similar phenomenon is the tendency for “pro-USA” sentiments to be morphed into “pro-war” sentiments. It for pretty much similar reasons, and I think it, too, is reasonable for the two to be considered seperate.
I support the troops only in the sense that I feel strongly that they should pull out and go home, out of harms way. I don’t support the job they were ordered to do. Unlike many of the idiots that make up the general public, I can see the fine distinction here.
When you look at these young, young kids, it just makes you sad. I mean, so many of them are not even 20 yet. They have such baby faces. And, as someone pointed out here somewhere, many of them signed up for the military for a number of practical reasons, not because they wanted to “kick a little ass”. I think it is shameful that we send our children in harms way like that. Look at all these baby faces. It makes me want to cry. At least they should send adults, seasoned trained killers, butch guys and girls who want to kick ass with a vengeance. Menopausal women would make fine soldiers.
Seriously, there should be a minimum age limit. At the very least they should be 25. What the hell are we doing? I look at my kid every day these days and I can just picture him with one of those uniforms on and it scares the shit out of me. If they reinstate a draft, and my kid can’t get out of it, I still will not support the war in the way the warmongers and rightwingers want us to. He wouldn’t want me to. He would consider me a traiter. He would go, but kicking and screaming, and hoping that his family and friends back home keep speaking out against this war. Which is exactly what we would do.
Here’s what should be done: Bush, you fucking devil, why don’t you set a fine example by putting your precious daughters in uniform and send them in harm’s way to boost the public’s morale about your little war??? Let them go first and do make a big media event out of it. Might even help you in the polls. Use the little princesses to show all these poor kids who are being sent to their death how to throw your young life away FOR YOUR FUCKING COUNTRY. Come on, shrub. Have the guts? Didn’t think so. Let some poor people’s kids take the bullet while Jenna and Barbara or whatever their fucking names are live the rich kids’ lives at some Ivy League College. I am beyond disgusted. Maybe I should start a pit thread about this. I’m mightily pissed.
Pro-troops is seen as pro=war simply because it’s damn near impossible to criticize the war or the president without being accused of NOT supporting the troops. Look at the huge flaps over the Dixie Chicks and Micheal Moore, and how they’re being accused of being anti-troops, anti-American, and kicking puppies. (Okay, not the puppy thing, but certainly the others.)
If you must be pro-war to support the troops, those who support the troops must be pro-war.
If you support the troops, you support their job, you support war.
If you do not support their jobs, they have no function, therefore you dont support the troops.
You cant have your cake and eat it too.
What is the purpose of having military personnel and equipment, train them to be the best in the world, give them the best supplies and best information and plan to use them in best way possible then pull them back when 1 or 2 gets killed?
With all due respect I would suggest that you go back and read what Mr. Friendly said
Now on the face, Mr_F is saying that he has no support for this war. Granted. However when you read
That to me reads that he does not support any war. State-mandated killing does not sound like someone who thinks that under some circumstances war is OK or maybe a good thing. State-mandated killing sounds to me like someone who is against all war. This was the basis for my comment.
one more quote
If it had not been for those young boys, those few RAF pilots, too few of which came home, then Mr_Friendly would have posted in German.
I guess if you think about it X~Slayer’s way, it makes sense, but in reality, at least for me, it isn’t that simple. I do not support the war and have protested against it. That does not mean that I do not support the troops. Like everyone on the other side, I want our troops to safely come home as soon as possible. I have a very close friend and his little brother over there right now and I pray that they both return home safely with the rest of the troops. I am very frustrated with people equating anti-war with anti-American/anti-troops…it just doesn’t work that way. I just happen to feel that it is not right for any of these young guys to die for this.
You do realize, Rick, that if the German citizen’s had refused to go into the business of “state mandated killing” there would have been no reason for Britian to take up arms in WWII.
No people willing to be soldiers = no war. Its really a simplistic and unrealistic world view, but the base logic is sound. And a lot of people aren’t sure if we are fighting the “good fight” here or if we are the aggressors.
I think of the soldiers first and foremost as human beings. The sum total of a human being consists of more than the job they do. I am thinking especially of those who signed up for the military because they wanted an education, a secure job, the opportunity to travel, etc. and thought of actually getting called to active duty as only a remote possibility, in denial about the fact that it could actually happen to them. How many of those do you think would have pulled out if they had that option? Of course, the Army is not like a regular job, where you can say, “no thanks, I quit” when your boss tries to force you to do something unacceptable. True, they knew they could be called to duty when they signed up, but somehow no one ever thinks that that’s actually going to happen.
And then there are those who enjoy the asskicking and just use the patriotic b/s to make it acceptable. The aggressive killers who join the military to have an excuse to kill and look good for it. For those, I have no sympathy. Those, I do not support.
I’ve no problem with supporting the troops and being against the war. Some wars are just, others are not. I want the troops to come through unscathed in either event, because they don’t get to pick and choose which wars they fight.
This war is dubious at best, but I’m hoping for the best for the troops.
I’ve no problem with supporting the troops and being against the war. Some wars are just, others are not. I want the troops to come through unscathed in either event, because they don’t get to pick and choose which wars they fight.
This war is dubious at best, but I’m hoping for the best for the troops.