Please explain the benefit of the electoral college to me like I am a seven-year-old

While I’m supportive of a national popular vote for president, I do not think people need to vote on every piece of legislation. Firstly, you can only have election so often (cost, logistics, etc. unless you are doing it online or mail-in) and the secondly, that would completely eliminate the legislative branch of government. Thirdly, people don’t have the time to read all the laws, much less understand them all. So while some things might be voted on directly (big, Brexit-like things), we’d need some system for deciding what gets voted on and what the legislature deals with.

I think beyond a certain size of population, direct democracy is impractical. Heck, we even limited the size of the house of representatives because too many makes it impossible to accomplish things. While we might want more reps than we have (I’d need to do more research to form an educated opinion on that), the nearly 8000 we’d have for a rep for every 40,000 people seems way too high if they have any intent of having physical meetings and discussing things.

I agree with this. I don’t know that it never will be, but not in the next decade. We have a very strong attachment for Founding Fathers and not and there are reasons for that. But they are overly glorified, even when we know certain things were done specifically because of their elitism or to serve needs, limitations, or mindsets that no longer truly exist. It’s a document that has, and should have, significant barriers to change, but we don’t need deep psychological barrier to amendments.

Somebody is going to have to live out in the boonies to do stuff vital to our economy, if not our very survival.

I hear they grow stuff like food and wood out there.

I’m not in favor of being able to steam roll over those folks because somebody has to do it.

That really had nothing to do with it. As noted above, it was about a compromise between the large and smaller states. You have to keep in mind that the federal government was tiny back then compared to what it is today, and states were much more sovereign. The BoR had not been incorporated (some states actually had established religions), we didn’t have a standing army, not income tax, no 14th amendment, etc.

The problem with changing the system now is that there is little to no incentive for the smaller states to do so, and you need 3/4 of the states to agree to a constitutional amendment.

Sure, but you can say the same thing about almost any other professional demographic you care to name. Someone has to teach school, and that’s important, too., and I’d hate to see teachers steamrolled over. Should we give teachers a disproportionate voice in our government to prevent that? Someone has to work in factories; should factory workers get a disproportionate voice? Someone has to wait tables in restaurants, someone has to collect garbage, someone has to catch stray nuisance animals, someone has to drive buses. Should all of these professions have disproportionate representation? Everyone’s a minority of some sort or another, and the only way to protect all of those minorities is to give everyone an equal voice.

But why in the world should that be state-based? As mentioned elsewhere, currently the divide is urban/rural, which exists within a state so winner-take-all for votes within a state doesn’t fix that. Besides which, why should people who produce food get more say than people who invent medicines or provide other essential services (which gets us into ranked-weight voting by occupation which is so rife for abuse that it’s ridiculous)? And even if they do get more say, then why should other rural people who have nothing at all to do with food production (like me - I’m a programmer) but just happen to live in a rural area (or, more accurately with current EC, a less populated state, even if it doesn’t produce food) get more say than non-food production workers who live in cities?

Right now the least populated states get the most say-so per person, regardless of how much they produce - in food or otherwise. And California produces the most money on crops (but that doesn’t necessarily translate to most food grown), and it’s woefully under-represented by by ECvotes-per-person.

I should have said - losing an election isn’t getting steamrolled. We do have three branches of government and checks and balances.

But a popular votes does help in the sense that red voters in blue states and blue voters in red states get more say so (as we see that large EC wins/losses sometimes come when % difference in votes isn’t as lopsided). I mean, how often do we hear non-Chicago, Illinois-votes or Austin-based Texas voters talk about how much their votes just don’t end up counting?

Remember that the electoral college was devised at a time when there were 13 widely scattered states with various numbers of population (and as others mentioned, different rules on who could vote). At the time there were no formalized parties, and very limited communications between the different states. So how do you elect a leader?

The obvious first choice for election was - everyone runs, whoever gets the most votes, wins. First, the founding fathers were very skeptical of the unwashed massed and the ability of a popular figure to egg them on with outlandish promises. (Good thing that does not happen today). Second, with the limited communications of the time, most candidates were expected to be local - so the guy from New York or Boston or Virginia would probably get the most votes and candidates from smaller states or just one end of the country would never win.

So they devised a system where, unless the candidate won the election in enough states to get the electors, representatives of the popular vote, of half the country, they would not get elected. The system was weighted to give more influence to the smaller states to balance that population problem. If nobody got an electoral vote of 50% then the decision was up to congress, since they were so level-headed and knew better than the voters. (Note too, originally, each elector got 2 votes and the guy with the second most votes was VP - so a bit of balance there if the vote became regional.)

The FF generally thought that only someone wildly popular like war hero General Washington would get the 50% by taking so many states; after that, regional candidates would all split the vote and fall short of that 50% and congress would decide. What they failed to foresee was that factional parties put the government above local interests and united around a single candidate for the whole country. Only twice did the vote go to congress, and once it was because the winning party forgot to vote one less for VP than prez, causing a tie.

Nowadays it’s stalled by inertia and self-interest. A state controlled by party A (or D, or R) has no advantage in allocating electoral votes by popular vote or some such, because it puts their state and hence their party at a disadvantage. 55 electoral votes for California or 35 for Texas go solidly to one party. Opening it up would mean that the Democrats (CA) or the Republicans (TX) would be tossing away up to half those electoral votes. Even if Ohio or Pennsylvania or Florida did so - they typically have about 50-50 popular vote, so now losing that state would mean losing 3 or 4 electoral votes, not 20 or 29; candidates would not spend anywhere near as much time there, nor would their policies leading up to an election pour as much pork into the state.

So the change has to be an all-or-nothing change, where all the states at once choose to change (Constitutional amendment). However, consider the last two electoral wins where the popular vote differed were Trump in 2016 and Bush-W in 2000 - both Republicans. But Republicans control both houses and the presidency for the next 4 years (2 at least) and control many of those small states like Montana where they get a disproportionate extra clout. The future population growth is more likely to be in more diverse states where Democrats get more votes; until there is a tidal change in who controls Washington, it’s probably not a popular concept.

The other danger is that if pure voter results are what matters, rather than an electoral college, then what? Third and fourth parties get more clout. Do we stick with “If anyone gets less than 50% it goes to congress?” In 1992, the vote was 43% Clinton, 37% Bush, 19% Perot. How many candidates should be counted? What if the vote is 30%, 28%, 22%, 20% - who is president “by the will of the people”? Do you go to a 2-way run-off afterwards? (Could you survive two elections in one month?) As you can see - a BIG can of worms, which is why the system hasn’t changed.

Comments have focused on the mismatch between a state’s population and its number of electoral votes, but there’s another, possibly more important, effect at work.

Clinton won California roughly 5.5 million to 3.0 million votes. Her 2.5 million vote advantage in that state was worth 55 electoral votes. Her 1.5 million vote edge in New York was worth 29 electoral votes; her 0.9 million vote edge in Massachusetts was worth 11 votes. From these three states, Clinton had a 4.9 million total advantage in the popular vote and received 95 electoral votes. Each of those Clinton ev’s represented, on average, almost 52,000 surplus voters.

Trump won Florida by 120,000 votes and got 29 ev’s. He won Pennsylvania by 74,000 votes and got 20 ev’s. He won Wisconsin by barely 27,000 votes and got its 10 ev’s. Trump got Michigan’s 16 electoral votes by a winning margin of only 13,000 votes! From these four states, Trump had a 234,000 total advantage in the popular vote and received 75 electoral votes. Throw in North Carolina and Trump got 90 ev’s from five large states where his total vote advantage was only 410,000. Each of those 90 Trump ev’s represented, on average, only 4500 surplus voters.

So, the Winner Take All system makes the votes of swing states supremely important. (D) states like California, New York, Massachusetts are irrelevant to the campaigns, as are solid ® states like Missouri, Tennessee, Alabama and Oklahoma. As a happenstance of demographics (and the electoral college ant winner-take-all), the Presidential election was decided by tiny margins in the Rust Belt.

One can argue this makes the election more efficient — it centers on just ten states; Presidential votes in most of the nation are just a formality; these non-swing states need not be drenched in campaign ads. But it doesn’t seem particularly “democratic” and of course no super-majorities would be available to make a fairer system.

Getting rid of the Electoral College all together requires a Constitutional Amendment - which won’t happen. But that is not the only way to ensure that the winner of the popular vote wins the election. Remember, states decide how to allocate their electoral votes (winner take all, proportionate, by district, etc). There’s an interstate compact in which states can agree to give their electoral votes to the winner of the national popular vote. It will not become effective until enough states agree to ensure 270 electoral votes- but it doesn’t require a particular number of states to agree. And every state that’s not a swing state has a reason to agree - because campaigns would no longer be able to ignore New York or Texas.

I’ll also note for international comparisons, in Federal systems the Federal constituent parts generally have some form of special representation above and beyond their population.

For example in the European Union (a confederation, more or less), the Council of the EU, which is one of the EU’s legislative chambers with some executive powers, they have a hybrid voting system that requires both a supermajority of EU states (55%) representing at least a supermajority (65%) of the EU’s population to concur on matters.

If this body was straight population, well there are 28 EU states, and Germany + France + UK + Italy alone are more than 50% (almost 54%) of EU population. The seven largest states alone represent 70% of the EU’s population, but the function of the Council is such that the big seven can’t just bully the rest, because at least 55% of all EU member states must concur. At the same time the 65% population requirement prevents a cabal of the little European countries from dictating to the large ones, the bottom sixteen states (enough to represent 55% of the 28), only have about 70m people combined, or about 13% of the total population of the EU.

So much like our electoral college, this organ is a balancing act weighing both population of the whole confederation, as well as the rights of the sovereign states. It really makes perfect sense for a body like the EU, and it made perfect sense for something like the United States during the era of Confederation government. I’d argue it makes a lot less sense now, but as explained just because some aspect of our constitution no longer makes a ton of sense in the modern world, doesn’t mean we can just wave a wand and change it–and there’s no obvious path forward to removing the electoral college.

Every state that’s not a swing state does have reason to agree, but so far that hasn’t been the case. So far not a single swing state has adopted the NPVIC, but more telling not a single red state has, including ones like Texas or Mississippi which, just like Massachusetts or California are all but irrelevant in the general election.

I think among the type of voter that is more deeply invested in the concept of state sovereignty, the desire to get rid of the electoral college is much lower. This compact has been going around since 2007, and studies actually showed Obama would’ve been the beneficiary of the electoral college if 2008/2012 had been close, which made some noise around Republican wonk-circles, but you saw no real noise in Republican state legislatures. It’d be hard for people who are always advocating for States rights to dismantle something that, politically, is seen as an embodiment of those rights.

So while the NPVIC seems fairly close to getting to 270, the fact that it cannot get there without at least some swing states or a few red states, makes it unlikely it’ll happen any time soon.

The solution is obvious. Leave the EC exactly as it is and reapportion the state borders until each state has the same population.

It solves all our EC problems!!

There just *miiiiight *be a few awkward side effects, but a nation that can elect Trump is a nation that can overlook almost anything on the way to a “solution”.

:smiley:

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Not quite a GQ reply, but we’ve got plenty of good answers already. This *reductio ad absurdum *demonstrates just how big a constitutional / political change it would take to doing anything significant about the issues the EC represents.

I wonder if the National Popular Vote movement has gotten a boost lately? Did it after 2000?

I had the impression popular vote was more popular than EC when Americans were polled. But I thought marijuana legalization had the majority in polls, too. Doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. Though if I were a person prone to bets, I’d bet on marijuana being removed from schedule 1, at least, and not being federally illegal as event occurring before the death of the EC.

Not, mind you, that I think popular vote should always decide what’s what - checks and balances and guaranteed protections/rights and so on. And I know how late it was before a majority of those people polled approved of interracial marriage (can’t find any numbers on thinking it should be illegal - not the same thing as disapproving).

Besides, the electoral college as a two-party contest has generally followed the popular votes. In the two recent ones it has not (2000 and 2016) it has been fairly close popularly but an embodiment of the principle - carrying a few large states by a wide margin but losing many small ones and a few close large states - this is exactly what the electoral college was designed to prevent, that a candidate does not get to win by a lopsided distribution.

Yeah. I’m personally a little torn on the EC, on one hand, I like Federalism, I think federal states often handle the inter-meshing of national vs local concerns pretty well, and I think a lack of federalism often leads to trouble–a big part of the UK’s troubles is until very, very recently in its history it has been extremely centralized, with all real decision making done in Westminster. The devolution to the various parliaments of the UK has been a more recent occurrence as a way to try and salve long, long simmering local resentments of being dictated to by the Westminster Parliament, and as you’re seeing with the Scottish I’m not sure we don’t have a case of “too little, too late.”

The EC I think is a somewhat important component of our Federalism, but even without it, the States retain sovereignty, they retain the benefit of being entitled to all areas of government not enumerated specifically for the Federal government in the constitution, and the President today is seen as the single biggest “representative of the people”, not a representative of the “collective states.”

But I also think people shouldn’t jump on the horse too much of saying “if we had a national popular vote, Gore would’ve won in 2000 and Clinton would’ve won in 2016!” The reality is all the candidates in those elections were campaigning for electoral votes. They disproportionately focus ad dollars, ground organizing, candidate visits and etc to the swing states they believe they can win to win the electoral college. If we had a popular vote, it’s a totally different election. Trump would’ve campaigned heavily throughout the southeast, most likely, Clinton would’ve done lots of campaigning in California and New York. Basically they’d focus on areas where they have the greatest number of potential voters, and for Trump that probably isn’t Wisconsin or Michigan, but is probably the deep south where you have to guess there are tons of votes that sit at home because they don’t feel needed at the polls (maybe, who knows.) I do know that the campaigns would’ve been so different in strategy if we had a popular vote, that there’s no way the popular vote numbers come out the same.

Maybe Hillary wins even bigger, or maybe she loses, same for Gore. But the actual results we had were the outcome of a competition for electoral votes, so if you support a popular vote for structural reasons–good on you, if you support popular vote because you think you’d guarantee the result you wanted looking back, don’t be so sure on that.

I think the fact that no red states have joined the compact is simpler than a devotion to the idea of states’ rights. I think it’s just that it’s perceived as being better for the Democrats than for the Republicans. In 2000 the Electoral College gave us a Republican president instead of the Democrat we would have had, and now the same is true in 2016. And there’s sound reason to expect that pattern to continue, since lower-population states (disproportionately benefited by the EC) tend to be rural and hence Republican.

And yes, the fact that you can’t get a majority of the electors without (by definition) at least some swing states or red states means that it’d be tough to get the compact passed. But it’s still easier than an amendment, which would face all of the same objections, but to an even greater degree.

You may not hear about it nationally, but it’s an enduring source of friction in Illinois state politics; “downstate” voters and representatives complain about the amount amount of influence that Chicago and its suburbs has in what happens in the state.

And as noted above, it was more than just this. It was also about popular election versus having Congress elect the president, as well as other factors. The article I linked to has a much better summary.

Federalism as thought of by the founding fathers, is long outdated. The Supreme Court has ruled that the states themselves must have both houses based on population and it has also, through the commerce clause and due process clause given the feds pretty much total control over the states, through either actual control or purse strings.

I feel doing away with the EC would benefit, as the candidates would have to campaign in each state and for every single vote, not just write states like CA, TX, NY and IL off.

The states are pretty much divisions of the country compared to what they used to be even since 1900.

Eh, I wouldn’t go that far. As recently as the Obamacare decision, the Supreme Court has put limits on the Federal government’s power to use withholding of funding coercively against the states, and in many, many areas of government the states have free reign to do as they please with little Federal interference or jurisdiction.