The history of Israeli Aggression from 1967 I must have made this up too. The Israelis are apparently blameless in the problems and I just cant understand that. There are American made munition dropping in Lebanon and its a one sided slaughter. I can not feel good about it.
From that cite:
That doesn’t exactly inspire confidence. Interesting how the title of that compiation says it’s a history of Israeli aggression from 1967 onward but neglects to mention the Yom Kippur War (which started with a sneak attack by Egypt and Syria) in 1973.
Did you try clicking on any of the links in that so called history? Click on the one labled “The history of the Six-Day War, June 1967”. One would presume that this would take you to a discussion ABOUT the 6-Day war, some background about the conflict, maybe some facts (or even fiction) about what actually transpired. At least I would presume so. But no. It takes you to 3 links entitled: "USS Liberty: Did Israel commit one war crime to hide another? ", “Truths about the Six-Day War: U.S. CIA & military secretly helped Israelis” and “Twists and turns of standoff”. These links lead to further bullshit.
This site is so blatantly anti-Israeli that its fairly sickening to even dig through it. Its no wonder that L.O.U.N.E is spouting what s/he has been spouting in this (and other related) threads of this kind if THIS is the tripe s/he has been reading.
I’m sure the site found that even THEY couldn’t spin the Yom Kippur war in such a way as to make the Arabs look good and the Israeli’s look bad. So…it was just inconvinent for them to include it on their wonderful web site. L.O.U.N.E. has probably never heard of the conflict and thinks you made it all up…you evil person you!
Here is a cite discussing the Yom Kippur War if L.O.U.N.E is interested. Here is a brief section discussing the events leading up to the war:
It really illustrates those peace loving Arabs…in contrast to those aggressive and warmongering Israeli’s.
Couple of points about the whole ‘one sided slaughter’ thing. First point is…so what? As has been pointed out to you numerous times, Israel didn’t start the conflict. If I go up and kick a guy who is bigger and stronger than me in the nuts, why would I be surprised if he then comes over and kicks my ass?? Second point being…where do you get the impression its ‘one sided’? HB is putting up quite a fight from what I’ve been reading…and THEY are tossing rockets into Israel (indiscriminately at civilian targets btw…they aren’t even pretending to target only military targets). From what I read today several IDF soldiers were killed just today attempting to take out a HB command post.
The other points I want to make is…appearently you CAN’T understand whats really going on, based on the numberous threads you have attempted to trot out your line of BS in. It really is more complex than you seem to understand.
As to US munitions being used…so what? Iranian, Chinese, Russian, etc munitions are ALSO being used (from various sources). You don’t seem to be bitching about THAT little fact.
I’ll let you in on a little secret…NO ONE feels good about this (well, maybe the good folks over at HB do…and there are probably some Iranians who aren’t exactly wringing their hands in misery over events as well). Even the Israeli’s aren’t exactly jumping for joy over whats going on. But there comes a time when enough is enough, when just one more attack breaks the ole dromedaries spine. Hezbollah has finally pushed things to that point, and Israel is no longer willing to let things slide, or go back to the status quo. The only acceptable solution (from their perspective) is for HB to be removed completely from southern Lebanon. If the Lebanese want to end this thing they are going to HAVE to deal with that…one way or the other. There are several nations who are poised to help them remove HB from southern Lebanon…by force if necessary. But its going to be up to the Lebanese to decide if they really want peace…or not.
-XT
Just for drill, here is a decent history of the 6-Day war (same Wiki source)…since the one you provided L.O.U.N.E doesn’t actually TALK about the 6-day war (in any meaningful way).
Here is another brief blurb about the reasons for the war:
Enjoy! 
-XT
This is all very richly anecdotal for which thanks are due. The tiniest of quibbles is that it does not particularly respond to the question; which was:
Bolding added.
What indeed? Perhaps the easier response is to contemplate the losses to the US should its relationship with Israel terminate.
I must confess to finding a list of such measurable demerits a little difficult to compose. Fortunately there are many voices here with more creative power than I presently command.
Not a difficult question to answer. On practical grounds, promoting and protecting democracy in the Middle East as an example for other area nations with minimal freedoms is surely in the American interest.
Gaining insight into effective anti-terrorist activities from a nation that has had to learn to cope with them for decades is also valuable. Israeli intelligence (Mossad) has shared information with their counterparts in the U.S. and other countries and given warning about movement of terrorists out of the region.
It gives the US a (generally) reliable ally and toehold in the region (you do realize that 6th fleet ships often use Haifa port for R&R and supplies) – At, what cost in US soldiers’ lives? Yes, I thought it was zero.
Compare to Iraq.
It also gives the US a only-very-slightly-roundabout way of subsidizing the American arms industry (you do realize that nearly all the $1.8 B Israel gets every year must be spent as $$ in the US, don’t you?)
Again – cost to US taxpayers is, at most (if you ignore the fact that most of it is used to buoy US industries, provide American jobs, etc…), $1.8B a year. Actually, as I said, probably a lot less (if not a net gain for the US economy)
Again, compare to Iraq.
And this is all just hard-nosed, bottom-line stuff, not even bringing up wishy-washy concepts such as Democracy, Western ideals, freedom, friendship…
I completely agree with the subsidy to the US arms industry. OTOH the US has plenty of reliable allies in the region, so I can’t give you that one. Had Israel contributed troops to Iraq, then the point would be sound.
But most of all you are correct to repudiate Jackmannii’s wishy-washy stuff. Overall though, I’m more and more convinced the better way to think it through is just as I’ve outlined above.
Here’s an article speculating on why Hassan Nasrallah, the Secretary-General of Hezbollah, decided, after things were relatively quiet for so long, to start lobbing shells into northern Israel, precipitating a predictable military response. The author thinks Nasrallah is partly just rendering service to his backers in Iran and Syria, but mainly, he acted out of desperation to prevent Hezbollah in Lebanon from being disarmed and reduced to just another political party.
In response to the OP, the best short history of the conflict that I am aware of that does not attempt to demonize either side is Healing Israel/Palestine by Rabbi Michael Lerner, available from www.tikkun.org .
I have been having trouble posting to this thread for some reason, so I will try to post this now and, if successful, will return with some of my own thoughts.
Ah, there it goes. I think Dseid 's post #74 is a good brief summary of the relevant history. I would stress, however, that the vast majority of the Jews who immigrated from Europe to Palestine in the pre-State period did so not because they were inflamed with Zionist ideology and just decided to leave their homes and go steal other people’s land, but because they were fleeing from discrimination and in many cases the very real threat of violent death. (and those who were Zionist ideologues at that time were much more likely to be secular socialists than religious zealots, btw). The notion that they were vicious imperialists enabled by “powerful Jewish politicians around the world” (which country exactly was it that had numerous Jews in positions of high political power in the late Forties?) is just a canard bordering closely on anti-Semitism.
Finnagain 's long post somewhere in the mid-80s is a generally accurate overview of the way in which cynical Arab governments (and, more recently, radical Islamist movements) have manipulated the pan-Arab and pan-Muslim sentiments of their people to focus their anger at the oppressors of the Palestinians while being distracted from their own corrupt and dictatorial governments; meanwhile, they make no effort to actually contribute constructively to the resettlement of Palestinian refugees.
LOUNE 's link in #79 provides a cogent analysis from the Palestinian perspective of the shortcomings of Israel’s negotiation posture. For the last 35 years, even while occasionally negotiating with Palestinian leaders, Israeli governments of all parties have continued to condone the settlement of Jewish civilians in the territory occupied in 1967, in clear violation of international law. Recently, Israel has built its “separation wall” largely on Palestinian land, furthering the de facto annexation of much of the West Bank. To be clear, I am not saying that Israel does not have the right to maintain as much of a military presence in the Occupied Territories as it deems necessary to protect its citizens, nor that it does not have the right to build a wall for that purpose – but it does not have the right to permanently annex that territory, nor to settle civilians there. Even after the recent evacuation of Gaza, the settlements in the West Bank continue to grow, making Israel’s alleged commitment to peace look extremely dubious.
The outline of the ultimate solution is clear, though getting there will be politically complicated. There will be a Palestinian state encompassing most of the land occupied by Israel in 1967; any alteration of the borders will be arrived at through a process of genuine mutual negotiation, not unilateral “generous offers”. The right of Palestinians who fled Israeli territory in 1948 to return to Israel will be recognized; however, since Israeli Jews will (justifiably) never accept becoming a minority in their own country, financial compensation will have to be offered to those choosing not to return, such that very few of them will actually choose to return (and such compensation should also be offered to Jews forced out of Arab countries around that time). Almost certainly, an international peacekeeping force will be required to enforce this agreement for many years; if we see how difficult it has been for the posters on this thread, who presumably have no direct connection to the conflict, to treat each other respectfully, how much less should we expect the people who have actually fought each other for so many years to arrive at a position of mutual trust and respect within a short time! But I still hold out optimism in the long run; who would have believed a hundred years ago that France and Germany would be in a mutually agreed-upon economic union and no longer find it necessary to fortify their mutual border?!
Very good post. Just a question about this:
This I assume refers to the Shephardim, most of whom settled in Israel. Who is going to be offering them compensation?
In a perfectly just world, Israel would compensate the Palestinian refugees (or their descendants) and the Sephardim would be compensated by the governments of the countries they fled from. In reality, I think this compensation is going to have to come from some sort of international fund. Israel probably can’t afford to pay out the required sums by itself (and I will admit ignorance when it comes to having an idea of what the sums are going to be). Maybe the US can redirect those billions it currently gives in military aid to Israel (which, as has been pointed out, are really a thinly disguised government subsidy to the arms industry).
http://www.aljazeerah.info/Editorials/2003 Editorials/May-August 2003/Israeli aggression in the past and present, By Hassan El-Najjar and Michael Bokerelli.htm Every incidense you will reject. I will of course have to see you as a reasonable observer. I have no dog in this fight. Im not jewish or arab. I want to see peace in the middle east. I think Isralies contribute to the unrest. How any one can find them blameless and reject every counter case I dont know.
Well of course, they contribute. Rather actively contribute, too. Most of the time, they’re not the ones who start it, though, and they’ve made the largest number of attempts to end it.
I assumethis is the link you were trying for (Al Jazeera editorial from 2003 on Israeli aggression, past and present). In the article, Michael Bokerelli asks some questions and Hassan El-Najjar (I don’t know who either of these men are, by the way) answers them. Notably (relevant excerpts taken):
Bokerelli: I would just like to ask you to explain yourself when you use the terms Israeli agression [sic] and israeli [sic] wars. I certainly hope you are not referring to the War of Independance [sic], the 6-Day War, the Yom Kippur War, and the War of Attrition. These wars were all declared on Israel but the Arab world, not the other way around.
Hassan: The 1948 war, which you describe as the war of independence and I describe as An-Nakba (the Calamate or the Disaster), is the original example of Israeli aggression. By the end of that war…
Hassan relabels the 1948 war but ignores who actually started it. Further, he describes all military actions of Arabs as being merely reactive to earlier Israeli actions. This is very convenient, since his earliest cite of proto-Israeli aggression goes as far back as 1897, and from this, apparently, all 20th-century Arab attacks can be justified.
If I could do so without violating the SDMB policy on copyright, I’d copy and paste (with attribution) the entire article and invite analysis of Hassan’s remarks. I’m willing to bet they wouldn’t stand up to careful factual scrutiny.
I don’t think the US really wanted Israel to contribute troops to Iraq. Israel did provide intelligence support, though, and there’s some evidence that Israel is training anti-insurgent Kurdish forces in Northern Iraq.
Makes for an interesting sort of alliance doesn’t it? When exactly has Israel contributed troops to a US war or cause?
By intelligence support I assume you mean: “Keeping quiet so as not to be a wet blanket.”
Are there still no takers on the challenge to list the losses to the US should its relationship with Israel terminate? Perhaps I’ve underestimated my own powers of creation.
Years ago, Israeli friends of mine told me that Israeli scouts helped out in the first Gulf War
Since quite a lot of Israelis are of Iraqi origin, one can be pretty sure that they have made themselves useful.
It would be a bit tactless broadcasting it though.
Another amusing thing I was told, is that when going undercover in Gaza or the West Bank, they would use spray on beard stubble.
Seems to me, given that the numbers of Shephardim and Palistinians displaced are about equal, that most of the Shephardim became citizens of Israel, and that it is Israel which would theoretically be on the hook to compensate Palistinians, whereas the Arab & Iranian governments would theoretically be on the hook to compensate the Shephardim, that the easiest and most fair solution would be to have the Arab & Iranian governments cut out the middleman and directly compensate the Palistinians, and the Israelis directly compensate the Shephardim.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002331----000-.html we are all terrorists according to US code.