Please explain the physics of a spacecraft launching from the Moon or from Mars

What if you took a very small capsule, lifted it into orbit, then docked it with a space station in low Earth orbit? From there you could take a different craft from low Earth orbit to a second station around the moon; this craft would only make this back and forth journey. From the moon, you could then take a lander down to the surface; again, the lander would only make the trip from a surface base to the station and back.

Eta: even there, with modern tech I’d rather use a reusable Falcon to put my astronauts in LEO than an air launch system, but maybe one could be made efficient enough to do this.

Of course, if a Single Stage to Orbit plane could be built, that would be a good reason to go airlaunch. But I don’t know if that’s possible.

You might be able to get the crew to orbit that way, but there’s also the need for fuel to get from Earth orbit to Lunar orbit and then from Lunar orbit to the Moon’s surface. And then more fuel for the return trip. Unless you can produce that stuff in space, that has to be launched from Earth, perhaps in a separate launch. It’s not likely all that fuel could be air launched.

Yes, this would be most useful if we had a facility on the moon for producing rocket fuel. It is cheap and easy to launch large amounts of fuel off the lunar surface, given the proper infrastructure (which is not easy nor cheap to set up to begin with, of course)

Saturn wa a special case. They provided the whole set in one rocket - lander, return stage from moon, moon-orbiting outpost and return stage from moon orbit. It was one shot because they had to get things done ASAP and deemed trying to rendezvous in orbit for assembly of the components too risky.

I assume any future visits to the moon (and later, Mars) would be by craft designed to remain in orbit, assembled from pieces sent up from earth. Likely the only earth component would be the capsule for the return; it may be cheaper to use aerobraking than to take the fuel for a return to earth orbit all the way there and back. Or… they may decide reusability is the key and actually return to an ISS base.

There are multiple components to these trips. With reliable multiple launches and no urgency, each can be lifted individually. Lunar lander; orbiting moon station components (Gateway or similar) shuttle between earth orbit and moon orbit. Supplies for each location. etc. I certainly expect that a craft to go to Mars and back, a trip of several months or more each way, will be more than a single launch load.

It’s also logical and cheaper (so don’t expect it) to make the components modular. Crew quarters whether lunar orbiter, earth-moon shuttle, or Mars craft, can be assembled from the same components and propulsion components. Maybe even a Mars lander would be very similar to a moon lander, it just couldn’t handle as big a payload for Mars.

Air launches have in fact been done: That’s the Pegasus launch system, which has been used for a few satellites (small ones, I think).

And I’ve also seen designs for a vehicle that’s a hybrid between a balloon, an airplane, and a rocket: It floats to high altitude, then gradually builds up both speed and further altitude, smoothly transitioning from buoyant lift to aerodynamic lift to orbit. It works on paper, but being completely unlike any vehicle we’ve ever built, there are myriad engineering details to work out before it could ever actually happen.

There are a couple of limitations. One is that due to the low density of the Martian atmosphere (~1% of that at sea level on Earth), the area of the canopies has to be enormous to decelerate even a modest payload to a landing speed that is still several meters per second. With Pathfinder and the exploration rovers, this speed was dealt with by packaging them in protective balloons or (for Curiosity and the upcoming Perseverance) via a terminal retropropulsion system, a.k.a. the “Sky Crane”. Obviously a descent vehicle with a human payload would need to make a very soft landing for the safety and comfort of the crew. The other, more significant problem is that because the atmospheric pressure on Mars is so low, blunt (or bluff) body deceleration is not as effective as on Earth, and a parachute will be deployed while still at supersonic speeds at a very high dynamic pressure. This will impart a greater jerk and faster inflation than parachute deployment at lower (hopefully subsonic) speeds, and even using multiple reefing stages and dampening elements there is only so much that even a high tensile strength textile can absorb. Realistically, for a crewed Mars descent vehicle of 40+ metric tons, a combination of an inflatable decelerator like the LDSD and (possibly supersonic) retropropulsion will be required for a safe and controllable landing. Here is a brief presentation on the challenges of entry, descent, and landing (EDL) on Mars.

In theory you could do this but the reality is that the enthalpy of that reaction is so low and the molecular mass of the products is so high that the specific impulse just wouldn’t be good enough for a high thrust application. A lot of things burn, but very few things combust with enough energy and at high enough temperature to make effective chemical propellants, and the ideal propellant has products that are as low molecular mass as possible to increase the effective exhaust velocity. With LH2/LOx engines, they are often deliberately run hydrogen rich just to get better thermodynamic performance even though you are not getting complete combustion of the products.

As a first order estimate, you can look at the kinetic energy per unit mass of the orbit you want to achieve, from that figure out the Δv (change in velocity), estimate your inert mass (payload and launch vehicle structure and propulsion system), and use the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation to figure out the mass of fuel, assuming that you know the specific impulse of the propellant in the engine. You can even do this for multiple stages with different propellants just by sequential calculation. To account for drag and gravity launches for a ‘typical’ ground to orbit trajectory, multiply by somewhere between 1.10 and 1.15, depending on how fast your vehicle is. For a detailed estimate you would actually run something like the flight simulation you outline (which you’ll run anyway to assess vehicle stability and accuracy limits).

The main advantage of an air-deployed launch vehicle is that you can fly out to a location where you have your choice of azimuths and/or can launch into broad ocean area away from flight paths and commercial shipping lanes and thus avoid the necessity of range tracking or a certifying a sophisticated autonomous flight destruct system (AFDS). You can also fly above ground winds and low level weather systems that would halt a ground launch, but you can also be pushed out of your racetrack by even a hint of lightning or wind shear, so that’s a wash. Conventional air-launched vehicles are limited by the size of their carrier systems, generally something like a B-52 (first couple of Pegasus flights), L-1011 (subsequent flights of Pegasus and Pegasus XL), 747 (Virgin Orbit), or C-17 (pallet-dropped air-launched targets like SRALT, MRT, or LRALT). Stratolaunch Systems developed the worlds largest (by wingspan) carrier aircraft which was intended to carry medium-class payloads in a range comparable to Delta II but has yet to actually flight an orbital launch vehicle and they seem to currently be focusing on hypersonic test vehicles instead of orbital launch. As others have noted, the speed and altitude advantages are almost negligible while the complexity of air-dropping a launch vehicle is far from trivial even for a small satellite launcher, essentially combining the challenge of launching a rocket and flying very heavy external loads, plus a host of safety and monitoring issues.

Getting back to Mars, a sensible mission architecture would involve prepositioning an infrastructure, including supplies, habitation, power generation, and ascent vehicles prior to even embarking the crewed portion on an interplanetary jaunt versus the all-in-one approach of Apollo lunar missions. In that way you could at least verify that everything is working as expected, and you don’t have to coordinate a bunch of launches to bring all the mission elements together in one vehicle. But again, it would be better still to develop a more general infrastructure for space exploration first using autonomous systems to extract and refine resources so as to minimize the dependence to bring all resources from the surface of the Earth all the way to Mars. If you can find water ice in a convenient solar orbit, extract it using the reliable solar energy in space, and then send it down to the surface of Mars, you can afford to provide a large margin of resources versus being mass limited by sending everything in one or two shipments. Of course, building this kind of infrastructure isn’t cheap or easy, even compared to a single US$500B Mars crewed mission but it does create a more sustainable infrastructure for multiple missions and exploration beyond Mars. One less to be learned from Apollo is that when you program goal is to just get to a single destination, once you’ve achieved that you are done as far as politicians and the public at large are concerned. But if you have an existing infrastructure that makes subsequent missions so cheap that it isn’t worth arguing over, you can keep extending your missions indefinitely.

Stranger

The link @Stranger_On_A_Train gave is fine, but here’s a slightly different derivation of the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation:
Start with:
p=propellant flow rate (i.e., kg/s)
m0=initial mass
m1=final mass
Ve=propellant exit velocity
F=engine force

Then:
m(t) = m0 - p⋅t
And (since force is mass flow times exit velocity):
F=p⋅Ve

Since F=ma and a=F/m:
a(t) = p⋅Ve / (m0 - p⋅t)

We can integrate to:
v(t) = -Ve⋅ln(m0 - p⋅t) + C

The final time is (when the propellant is depleted):
t1=(m0 - m1)/p

Evaluating t from 0 to (m0 - m1)/p gives:
delta v = -Ve⋅ln(m0 - p⋅(m0 - m1)/p) - -Ve⋅ln(m0 - p⋅0) = -Ve⋅ln(m1) + Ve⋅ln(m0) = Ve⋅ln(m0/m1)

And that’s it. You can convert to a form using Isp by substituting Ve=Isp⋅g. Note that the flow rate drops out of the final formula.

Yeah. We did learn from Spirit and Opportunity that there is a self-cleaning effect to some extent. It does seem though that there will have to be some degree of cleaning. I don’t know how much research there has been in regard to anti-dust coatings, electrostatic dust removal, etc. Mechanical dust removal sounds problematic.

SpaceX will be taking a slightly different route with their Starship program, using a lifting body approach rather than inflatable decelerator.

We don’t have hard figures yet, but we can do some napkin math about the practicality of their approach. They will have to use the lifting body to reach terminal velocity (which will be fairly high), and then use supersonic retropropulsion to perform the final landing. The initial entry will likely require “negative lift”; that is, using aerodynamics to keep the craft as low in the atmosphere as possible while it slows.

The question becomes whether the craft can actually land with reasonable payload given the likely high terminal velocity.

Let’s assume a Starship dry mass of 120 t (roughly what they’re shooting for), with 100 t cargo, and 70 t propellant (an educated guess). Using the rocket equation, with an Isp of 380, we get a delta V of 1029 m/s. Not too shabby.

Starship is 50 m high and 9 m diameter, and will descend on its “side”. The nose is stubby, so it’s not a perfect 50x9 rectangle cross-section, but on the other hand there are various bits poking out here and there, so it probably comes close to 450 m^2 anyhow.

A cylinder has a ballistic coefficient of 0.5, but the body flaps on Starship add significant drag. I don’t have a great estimate of the “real” ballistic coefficient, but I’ll go with 0.7 as a rough guess.

The Martian atmosphere is only 610 Pa, though being almost entirely CO2 helps a bit. That comes to 0.012 kg/m^3 density.

Finally, the surface gravity on Mars is 3.711 m/s^2. Plugging all of these into the formula here gives 755 m/s.

So at a handwaving level, it’s doable. 755 m/s is around mach 3 on Mars, and a reasonable amount under the 1029 m/s we gave ourselves. While SpaceX has obviously not yet landed anything there, they’ve at least proven the viability of supersonic retropropulsion here on Earth.

Thanks for the calc. Can you please comment on what the final outside temperatures will look like ? On earth’s dense atmosphere, we have high drag but much of the heat is lost to air by convection/conduction. With such low densities on Mars, the drag is low but it will also be much harder to lose heat. What’s your take ? Thanks

The “lifting body concept” for a large vehicle Mars descent has been considered in many studies, and was the general mode assumed for mission through the 'Eightes and early 'Nineties using a blunt-arsed biconic capsule. However, this turns out to have a lot of downside, in particular in the limits of controllability, how much lift can really be achieved, and the overall mass of the necessary thermal protection for the capsule, hence the move to an inflatable decelerator. There are many papers on the topic that can be found on the NASA Technical Reports Server (freely available) as well as Journal of Spacecraft and Rockets (for those with an AIAA subscription). The SpaceX Spaceship landing concept is very different from a blunt-arsed capsule, of course, but many of the same issues still apply. In short, I’ll believe in the feasibility of the SpaceX concept when I see it actually work, even on a scale model.

Heat rejection during reentry is pretty much a non-issue; it occurs so fast and there is so much thermal input that cooling effects via reradiation just don’t contribute much. However, because of the very high speed that a descent vehicle will experience for a long duration and the corresponding high dynamic pressure, heating is actually more problematic with a Mars descent than it is in the much thicker atmosphere of Earth. Note that the wave drag a body experiences in supersonic and transonic flight is not the same as the form drag at subsonic speeds which is mostly a boundary layer effect; at supersonic speeds, the actual interface of the drag is at the shock boundary where the ambient fluid ahead of the vehicle is continually compressed (which is what causes the drag losses) and then radiates away that thermal energy to the body as it expands. You can also get interactions between two shock boundaries which can amplify heating significantly, which is why simple blunt-body shapes are preferred.

There are basically two ways of passive thermal protection upon reentry; either ablative thermal shielding, which is what Apollo and other capsules use, or very low thermal throughput insulation (silica tiles on the belly and silica and ceramic fiber quilted blankets on other surfaces and behind the reinforced carbon-carbon nosecap leading edges). The ablative shielding is actually designed to evaporate in a controlled way, limiting heat transfer to the underlying material (and is actually a very conservative design that despite being intended for single use was robust enough for reuse), carrying away thermal energy and even forming a radiative barrier, while the silica tiles and fabric are just really good insulators (but quite delicate and for the tiles very difficult to attach securely) which retain the absorbed for a long duration after use. There are also active thermal protection systems (TPS) which run fluid channels just underneath the exposed skin to carry away heat, but although often proposed these have rarely been used in practice (and never, to my knowledge, with a crewed reentry system) because a failure or even moderate degradation would likely be catastrophic. All thermal protection systems need to be properly sized for the application with suitable margins because there are so many unknowns when it comes to making detailed estimates of the reentry environment; even with flight data and high fidelity computational fluid mechanics simulations just a small change or degradation can result in unrecoverable catastrophic failure, e.g. the loss of Columbia during reentry on STS-107.

It is a well-worn statement that Mars is the most difficult solid body to land a craft upon because of the thin atmosphere, which both makes the thermal protection complex, and requires a very large aerosurface to get sufficient drag, much less controlled flight. This isn’t such a problem with a payload around 1 MT because but when that is increased up to a payload of tens of metric tons, the scaling of the size of the aerosurface combined with the mass of TPS required becomes a problem both for being able to package the descent craft and the total payload mass it consumes relative to all of the useful payload, e.g. crew, habitat systems, propellants and consumables, instrumentation, et cetera. I’ve worked on adjunct studies to the Mars DRA 3.0 and 4.0 that highlighted this as an area that needed more technical development in order to reach a suitable level of maturity, and in reading the subsequent DRAs it is evident that that the architecture development team came to the same conclusion (presumably independently). So, again, it is a major challenge to landing large payloads and a crewed mission to the surface of Mars.

Stranger

Not in the context of landing from orbit, but I’ve heard the idea of trying to build an airplane for Mars summarized as being akin to building a supersonic ocean liner.

Huge mass and therefore inertia required, huge speed required, and darn little atmosphere to “push back against” to steer or generate lift or generate thrust with a propeller or rotor.

And even if you could somehow figure a way to drive a chemical reaction between some sort of fuel and the atmosphere a la some variation of a jet engine, you’re still not generating much thrust because there’s just not enough atmosphere to process through the engine.

In all, it seems that almost no matter what the engineering question is, the wrong answer is … “Mars.” It’s a bad place. A seductively bad place.

As a matter of practicality, I’m not sure we would want to enter ANY gravity well, once we’ve finally left Earth’s. Rotating habitats and asteroid mining offer innumerable advantages over colonizing a dustball like Mars.

First, welcome back. You were missed.

With respect to the quote, would it make a significant difference to incorporate an SR-71-style refrigeration system utilizing the fuel for the landing burn as an additional heat sink? Or would it be needlessly complex compared to the added potential problems in propellant routing and piping integrity versus the magnitude of additional heat management it could provide?

Do projected stagnation temperatures and pressures along the shock front(s) for Martian supersonic flight vary appreciably from Terran, given identical projectile speeds? IOW, what difference does the low pressure CO2 composition of Mars’s atmosphere make versus higher pressure Earth’s nitrogen-oxygen mix?

That is what an active TPS system would do. What you are describing is regenerative cooling, where the heat is used to help vaporize and drive the propellants, but I don’t see any particular need for this for a Mars Descent Vehicle, and the added complexity would almost certainly come with a substantial reduction in reliability.

[quote=“Gray_Ghost, post:74, topic:919189”]
Do projected stagnation temperatures and pressures along the shock front(s) for Martian supersonic flight vary appreciably from Terran, given identical projectile speeds? IOW, what difference does the low pressure CO2 composition of Mars’s atmosphere make versus higher pressure Earth’s nitrogen-oxygen mix?
[/quote]I’m not a fluid dynamics engineer so I hesitate to talk to much to the specifics of the difference in aerodynamics between descent to Earth vs Mars, but the issue is less one of the difference in atmospheric composition per se but rather that the thinner atmosphere will result in a longer deceleration at higher speeds, and thus more heating. The details will depend upon the size and shape of the capsule or shield and the point at which it transitions from wave drag deceleration to some kind of retropropulsive flight. The heating can be reduced by just making a much larger diameter base end of the descent capsule, which is essentially what the Low Density Supersonic Decelerator (LDSD) is intended to demonstrate, but if you just had something that was an Apollo-type capsule scaled up to a ~40 MT payload, it would end up being at least 30-40 meters in diameter, which for a rigid vehicle is problematic in a whole host of ways from how you get such a vehicle from Earth to orbit to how you would control such an ungainly mass at subsonic speeds in the tenuously thin Martian atmosphere. An inflatable and expendable decelerator, if it can be made to work, allows for higher deceleration and lower total landed mass.

Stranger

Stranger

Thank you Stranger for the detailed heating explanation.

As to the composition difference, do you think gamma (Cp/Cv) difference between CO2 and N2 plays a part ? In compressors, we find CO2 is easier to compress than N2, in the sense that when you compress them the same ratio, CO2 heats up less than N2. Also the speed of sound (hence the Mach number) is effected by gamma.

Both of those statements are true, but the essential difficulty of entry, descent, and landing is that the atmosphere of Mars is thin enough that is not useful for subsonic and transonic flight without ridiculous lifting surface, but still enough to cause dramatic heating via ram compression. This would be true whether it is predominately carbon dioxide, nitrogen, or argon even though the specific thermal flux would be different for various media and would affect TPS ablation or insulation value. The primary effect of the difference in specific heat ratio (γ or κ, depending on what engineering discipline you studied) is actually its effect on supersonic retropropulsion because it will change shock boundaries and drag characteristics; see “Conceptual Modeling of Drag-Augmented Supersonic Retropropulsion for Mars Entry, Descent, and Landing”, Michael A. Skeen and Ryan P. Starkey, Journal of Spacecraft and Rockets, Vol. 51, No. 6, (Nov–Dec 2014).

Stranger

IMO …

There’s no reason to enter a gravity well unless it supports a human-compatible ecosystem. To exploit one of those we may well be willing to drop down into a well up to maybe 1.5G ~=15ms-2.

Conversely, once you’re stuck living on artificial air, recycled water, and hydroponic or algae-based foodstuffs, you may as well stay in nil-G as well, using centrifuges for health as needed.

In my youth I had plenty of spirit of adventure. Still have a lot for my age. Send robots and research explorers out there. Once we have an ecosystem, then, and only then, send ordinary humans as workers or colonists. But not before. The human asteroid miner should remain an SF trope; not a real job description.

For Earth re-entry, we likely won’t have to wait too long–perhaps by the end of this year, optimistically. We’ll see about Mars.

In principle, the body flaps on Starship should offer significantly more control authority than a biconic capsule, which from what I’ve seen only offers two means of control–a ballast sled that can control the CoG, and having a slight asymmetry in the heat shield that can be pointed by yawing the craft with thrusters.

The body flaps seem to work well subsonically. Seeing how they behave at hypersonic speeds will be exciting. I’d also like to know how much lift they can achieve. Intuitively, it seems like it should beat a capsule but probably not match the Shuttle or various blended lifting-body designs.

I imagine the real human asteroid miners will sit in their rotating habitats in relative comfort, remotely guiding mostly automated robots when they run into trouble.