And to think, I had it right to begin with. I started using the word “sex” and then thought, “No, wait, I think it’s ‘gender’.” Shoulda gone with my first choice.
I have similar feelings about Nico (Warhol factory set model/actress/singer/junkie, 1938-1988). And not because of her voice, either! I’m sure I haven’t read nearly as much about Nico as you have about Garbo, but I am interested in that period in rock history so I know a bit about her. It seems to me that the only reason Nico slept with so many of the influential men of the era is because it was the closest she felt she could get to being an influential man of the era (instead of the influential woman she already was). Judging from her own words, she didn’t particularly enjoy the sex, wished she’d been born a man, and intentionally adopted a masculine nickname in place of her too-German and perhaps too-feminine given name of Christa.
In fact, Billy Tipton was “outed” not by his autopsy, but by the EMT who rushed to his trailer when he collapsed and his son called 911. They opened his pajama top for CPR and found tits. His full biography was published a few years ago: Suits Me: The Double Life of Billy Tipton, by Diane Wood Middlebrook.
As a side note, this subject has been touched on peripherally in the book Children Who Remember Previous Lives by Ian Stevenson, M.D. There are several case studies of children who were apparently born remembering having been, and living previously, as the opposite sex. Indeed they carried the desire to be the opposite sex into their adults lives, despite abandoning discussion of their previous lives before puberty.
Now, I’m not claiming for a second that I believe reincarnation to be universally true - the author himself makes no such claim. But the case histories themselves are difficult to dispute, and enough to make me think it possible that an ‘old soul’ might well find itself in a body of the wrong sex. And this might be one explanation for why someone might simply know he or she is in the wrong kind of body. Surely not the only explanation. But perhaps one explanation.
I somehow doubt that.
While I believe in God and souls until either can be backed up by any scientific evidence, I’ll stick with the explanation (as demonstrated by studies of the termina strialis) that male and female brains are different, and that you can wind up with a brain which does not match the morphological or chromosomal sex of the rest of body.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I think reading it has helped me understand transsexualism and transgenderism, both of which never really made any sense to me.
Now, “LGBTIETC”? You lost me after the first T. Someone please spell it all out for me?
Not true, ancient transsexuals did more than just dress in the opposite sex’s clothes. Most societies had strict gender roles and the transsexuals, in addition to wearing their hair, jewelry and clothes as the opposite sex, also took on the opposite sex’s job description. They got married, raised children and were completely treated as though they had been born with the right parts.
Also, there are natural hormones transgendered peope could take. For example, urine from pregnant mares has a ton of estrogen, and a good deal of m2fs drank it to look more feminine. Some even had an operation where their penis was removed.
F2Ms were known to fashion fake pene out of different materials and to bind their breasts.
There were many cases of transgendered people being married and raising children with their spouses, being in the army, and just in general, living normal lives as their true sex and it isn’t until illness or death that the ‘truth’ comes out.
I understand that transsexualism might be hard for someone to get their head around, but just remember that sex and gender are not as binary as we think them to be. There are people with XX who have vaginas and live their lives as perfectly normal women. There are people with XX who have vaginas until they hit puberty, then they develop pene and become totally normal men. And then of course, there are people who are both male and female.
My guess is “lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans, intersexed, etcetera.”
First of all - adopting the gender role of one’s mental gender is part of “attempting to pass”.
Nor did all ancient societies tolerate transgenderism - “ancient societies” were far from homogenous and some were rabidly homophobic and hostile towards any variation from their stated norms. And the level of tolerance varied enormously, from full acceptance or special ritual roles to total ostracism.
Well, that might work if one had a steady supply of pregnant mare’s urine. Obviously did not apply to the ancient Americas or Australia, just for starters, since they didn’t have horses.
Doesn’t help the F2M’s at all.
Ah, yes, castration - you do realize that the majority of men who were castrated in ancient times did not volunteer for the operation? If they managed to make a good life afterwards it’s a testimony to the resiliance of the human spirit, but quite a few of history’s castrati were mentally male after their operation as well as before.
Now, you do have groups like the hejira of India… but even there, there is some question of just how voluntary some of these goings-on were.
Uh, yeah, I thought that was covered in attempting to pass as the opposite physical gender. For that matter, quite a few utilize those techniques today pre-operatively.
And plenty other cases of them being summarially executed if discovered prior to natural death.
No, dear - those folks are XY’s with a type of dysfunction in the adrogen production and utilization systems. And, really, any man who grew up with apparently female genitalia and suddenly acquired a penis and beard at puberty is NOT a “normal man”. That’s not normal human development. Niether is left-handedness, for that matter, but being a lefty isn’t normal either, just much more accepted than transexuality. If such men adjust to the situation and lead fulfilling lives then, again, it’s a testimony to the resiliance of the human spirit.
And, in truth, the resemblance to a normal XX female in such cases is merely superficial - a trained medic can see differences between such children and the normal female, and deeper inspection reveals male characteristics such as testes instead of ovaries and a total lack of uterus. With modern imaging techniques such tests need not be invasive.
True hermaphroditism is extremely rare. Most of the time it’s people who are clearly XX or XY with “funny looking” genitals. But, properly speaking, that’s intersex, not transsex. Which confusion can be understandable. But transsexuals can be born with perfectly normal chromosomes and perfectly normal genitals to fit those chromosomes, and still experience a mental mis-match severe enough to drive them to suicide. There may be some similarities between the two conditions, but they are two separate and distinct conditions.
When I used to believe in reincarnation, I had a complete story about a past life as a natal woman. Life story, name, appearance, everything. It’s where I got the female name I use within the T* community. Now, I strongly suspect my presumably BSTc-directed urge to be female influenced a fantasy I constructed and called a “past life”, but can’t say for sure that a real past life didn’t somehow influence my fetal development.
Not my intention to hijack this thread, but want to add that if you see musicfan259 on a reincarnation message board, that’s me. 
As a newly out trans-woman (do you think it looks better with or without the hyphen? Trans woman? It’s like trying on a dress: Does this hyphen make my word look fat?), I am confronted with the uphill struggle of just getting the public to understand what transgender means. This thread is a pretty good way to fight ignorance, to begin with. Yay Dopers!
The understanding is gradually emerging into the public consciousness that not all transgendered people are transsexual, i.e. planning to get The Operation. That there is a range of possibilities between total closeting/denial, and The Operation. Admittedly, human beings tend to want to cram phenomena into rigidly defined categories, and gender is just about the first thing you “make” upon first seeing a person. So if a person is obviously, deliberately bending genders, it makes some people uncomfortable. This, I think, makes those who start presenting unorthodox gender feel an incentive to take it all the way and be able to “pass” as successfully as possible.
Since reading about it here at the SDMB, matt_mcl has introduced me to the concept of “genderqueer” meaning a person who feels free to inhabit any variation of genderspace they feel like without necessarily referencing the narrow preset categories of the narrowminded. I respect these folks who are brave to openly challenge society’s gender taboos. Thanks, matt!
As for myself, although I criticize the rigid gender binary, I still feel myself to be a woman. Not a male crossdresser, genderqueer or gender bender; simply a woman. I want to be as femme and as ladylike as possible, even if it means sidestepping the inconvenient fact of having been born with male anatomy. From one point of view, that might seem to reinforce the gender binary rather than dissolve it, but anyway that’s the identity that I consider myself to be. Just being anatomically male while considering myself a woman is sufficient subversion of the gender boundaries.
Transwomen like me need to establish a genderspace where it’s clear that we are not just crossdressing men, “drag queens,” or some subspecies of gay. Those are all men, but we are women. Genderqueers blur the boundaries, but that’s all right with me, damn the boundaries anyway. On the other hand, some transgendered people reject the division into “pre-op” and “post-op,” saying it’s none of your business whether I get the “op” or not, and the “op” is not what defines my identity. I feel it’s important that we have the new word transgender established, in addition to “transsexual,” because the latter probably implies you’ve either had the “op” or are planning to when you get the chance. Transgender allows for the possibility of one’s being a transman or transwoman without reference to the likelihood of the “op.” Our identity comes from within our selves, our self-actualization, and does not depend on anatomy. That’s the main point.
To expand on Eve’s brain talk, and to address Inigo (I don’t think he’s trying to be an ass, but is rather is playing Devil’s Advocate):
There has been more and more research on the issue of gender and the role of the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) . But as was pointed out, a lot of the studies are post-mortem. It’s kinda tough to find undamaged post-mortem brian tissue (turns to goo pretty quick), and tougher still to find the undamaged post-mortem brain tissue that also happens to belong to a transgendered person – because TG folks are a minority. So presently, research is not easy because it’s hard to do large scale research that can be repeated enough to meet the standards for “conclusive”.
However with that in mind… UCLA studies in human genetics and studies in the Netherlands have found a few things. Firstly there are a whole slew of genes that seem to be related to gender and may be switched on before funky hormones start playing with fetal development. Secondly, the aformentioned BSTc research suggest there may be a Male Brain and Female Brain.
It used to be that everyone assumed that hormones had everything to do with gender identity in pre-natal development. But this recent research has put the brakes on that and says “Hey, check this out!”
The BTSc is a teensy weensy structure that’s part of the hypothalamus of the brain. Though it’s teensy weensy, it seems to be conected to a very important thing: Gender identity! In men, this chunk-o’-brain is about 44% bigger than in women. And hark! In FTM transexuals, that chunk-o’-brain is man-sized. In MTF transexuals, that chunk-o’-brain is woman-sized. Hmmm…
As Eve said, and embroyo has the potential to become either male or female up until the sixth or seventh week. At about the 7th week, the embroyo looks around and says “Hey, have I got a Y chromosome or what?” and then will take on the sexual characteristics accordingly and will develop either ovaries or testes and all the related trappings.
But the research into genetics and the BSTc may mean that while a developing brain is geared to go one way, that pesky Y chromosome or lack thereof, may take the body in a whole other different direction.
So you’ll have someone whose conscious sense of self and sense of gender identity is at odds with the sexual bits that came along with the rest of their body. Literally, a woman’s brain in a man’s body, or vice versa.
A delusional schizophrenic is has convictions that are not based in reality. But a transgendered person is actually astutely aware of the reality that their true gender got thrown out of whack by the letter Y.
Uh… and I hope I explained that correctly and without offending anybody.
It’s been a long while since some looooong talks with a transgendered friend of mine.
Here is the dilemma I am having. First, let me say that my personal take is that transgendered persons have a gender identity that does not match their physical features. I have several patients with gender identity issues, ranging from those questionning their gender identity to those 20 years post-surgery. I strongly believe that gender identity is physiologically defined.
However, I can’t help comparing this to another situation where the indivudual’s mental identity does not match the physical form. This is the case of people who are convinced that they should be amputees. I tend to think there may be a neurologic basis for this; in Oliver Sachs’ book “The Man Who Mistook His Wife For a Hat”, there is a chapter where some patients with brain-damage lose the ability to recognize a limb as “self”. If this has a neurophysiologic basis, then how do I reconcile the fact that I support SRS with the fact that I have trouble recommending amputation of otherwise healthy limbs that an individual does not recognize as “self”. I know that there is a doctor in France, who has done several of these amputations with the rationale that the patient is psychologically healthier after the procedure but I still have an ethical block against it.
Can somebody here help me to rationalize the difference between two situations where the physical body does not meet the intrinsic internal identity?
I have absolutely zero professional training in this area, but maybe the difference is the concept of “wholeness”. A trans person still wants to be whole, they just want to be a whole woman or a whole man.
A person who wants to become an amputee is expressing a desire to be less than whole, which is something that is unimaginable to most people. A person who wants to hobble themselves by cutting off a limb could be doing it for other reasons, like a pathological desire to be seen as helpless or pitiable*.
Does that make any sense? I know what I mean, I’m just having troulble expressing it in writing.
*[sub]I don’t necessarily ascribe those thoughts to everyone who has that particular diagnosis. I just mentioned it as a possibility.[/sub]
I’m going to very, very hesitantly wade into the transgenderism discussion. Hesitantly because I worry that in saying that I don’t totally “get” transgenderism it will come across like I’m intolerant of it. I don’t think I am intolerant. I recognize that this is something people realize they are and not something they choose to be, and I believe they have the right to deal with that realization however they see fit and shouldn’t be discriminated against because of it. That said, I still don’t totally “get it”, and I think what I don’t get is this:
People say things like they’re “a woman on the outside but a man on the inside” or vice versa. But I don’t see what it means to be a “man on the inside”. I’ve always defined a man as someone who has a y chromosome and a penis. I realize that there are stereotypes about how a man should act or even think, but to me these are just that – stereotypes. Our society imposes certain ideas about what is male behavior or female behavior. But if someone were to say of a woman, she “acts like a man” I would accuse them of sexism. Just because there’s a woman who’s assertive and career-minded, who in her free time enjoys sports and beer and porn, that doesn’t make her a man in a woman’s body – it just makes her a woman who doesn’t conform to the stereotype of womanhood. I would assume that for transgender individuals there’s more than just a feeling that they don’t fit the stereotype. (Unless it’s really just about a desire to be accepted for who they are, in which case body modification seems like a pretty drastic step.) But I assume it’s more than just a feeling of “I’m not like people expect a woman to be” (or a man as the case may be). But what else is there? To me the only traits of a man or a woman that don’t seem to simply be societal constructs are the physical ones – whether you have a penis, breasts, etc. So is that what transgenderism is, a feeling that you don’t “look right”? I find it hard to picture how a person could look at the same thing they have always seen in a certain place on their body and think it looks wrong. Some people in this thread have tried to explain it by saying “Imagine you woke up one morning and your penis was gone…” but I think that’s an oversimplification. If that happened to me, I’d be distrubed because it’s a change. Just like I’d be disturbed if I woke up and found I had tentacles instead of arms. But the only reason I expect to have a penis is because it’s what I’ve had in the past. It was there the first time I looked down at my naked body, and it’s been there every time since. So of course it’s what I expect to see when I look at my body, and I’d be shocked and disturbed to find something else in its place. But I would assume that the first time I looked at myself I wouldn’t have expected anything in particular, and other than my past experience I can’t really imagine any basis for thinking what I’m seeing isn’t what’s supposed to be there.
I want to be really clear in saying that I’m not in any way trying to criticize transgendered individuals. I mean exactly what I think I’ve said, which is that I don’t think I completely understand it and would like to understand better. To that end, let me try to rephrase my ramblings above into coherent questions for those who are transgendered:
(1) What is it specifically about the sex you were born with that feels wrong? The
physical parts? The way you’re expected to dress or behave? Something else?
(2) Have you always felt that there was something wrong with your sex? Or is this a feeling that developed over time?
(3) If you had never met a person of the opposite sex, do you think you would have still felt there was something wrong with you? Or was it a realization that came from your exposure to the opposite sex? Like if you’re FTM, the first time you saw a penis did you think “Hey, I really ought to have one of those?” (I don’t mean to be flippant, but I’m not sure how better to phrase that.)
(4) Do you think that you would feel that your birth-sex was wrong regardless of your society’s views on gender? Or do you think your transgenderism is in some way connected to societies perceptions of gender?
(5) Is your desire to change the physical manifestation of your sex motivated by a desire to make other people see you as you really are, or to appear to yourself as you feel yourself to be? Or both?
(6) If you actually feel that, physically you “look wrong”, how would you describe that feeling? (I realize it may not be a simple thing to describe.) I mean, do you look at yourself and expect to see something different, despite the fact that you’re seeing what you’ve always seen? Do you feel like you’re looking at someone else’s body? Do you just get a general sense that something isn’t right? Do you find yourself picturing the other sex’s “parts” in place of your own.
I’d really appreciate both any attempts to answer these questions or any general responses that people might have.
Just to clarify this, what I meant is: if there’s really nothing “wrong” with you, and it’s just a matter of other people having prejudices about what a man or a woman should be, then it seems like they should be the ones making a change. But my impression is that this isn’t the case, and transgendered people feel that there really is “something wrong” with the body that they were born with.
22yo ftm-something, having a go at replying.
For me it’s mainly the physical parts: having breasts, being mostly hairless, that high voice, the female distribution of fat on my body.
Plus being referred to with feminine pronouns/nouns and my birth name, which is very feminine.
I’m not awfully masculine or feminine in my way of dressing or acting. I can be seen as either a butch dyke or a femmy fag. I’m also pretty much only attracted to men.
[QUOTE]
(2) Have you always felt that there was something wrong with your sex? Or is this a feeling that developed over time?
[QUOTE]
It hit me at puberty, when my body changed, at around 11-12yo, didn’t left me then for a single day.
I honestly think yes, because as a little kid I remember knowing at in intellectual level that there was some difference between male and female bodies, generally, but I didn’t care because it wasn’t having an impact on my life, I don’t remember having a strong sense of self-identity one way or the other. It’s only when my body changed too that I felt that something was wrong, coupled with the fact I wasn’t reacting at all to that like any of my female friends.
But I can’t be sure you know, and it’s not as if it would help me or change something.
The fact I don’t want to be referred to with fem pronouns/nouns/etc and that I’ve picked a masculine name is only connected to society, I can’t think there is something in humans’ brains/genes coding a preference to that.
For the physical parts, I tend to think it has few relations, or to put it another way, I think whatever societal influences had/have an impact on my body self perception, it is outweighted greatly by some internal cues.
As a kid or teen I rarely if ever faced insults related to how I looked or dressed and my family never tried to discourages me from wearing or acting like this or that, never told me you can’t do this because you’re a girl/girls don’t do that/you don’t look like a girl/look like a boy etc.
I had top surgery for my peace of mind, I had been binding my chest for a few years before, never leaving the house without my binder on, thought I was doing a pretty good job, and was greatly surprised how right after surgery, very suddenly, I was being seen as a boy way more often.
Testosterone is a mix of both, I had “always” disliked my very high voice and the dose of T I’m taking placed it at a much better andro level, but now I’m taking a higher dose only to make it lower more and be seen more consistently as a boy, otherwise I can be taken as either or definitely as a girl in situations where they outnumber boys.
I hope to gain more body hairs because I think I look ugly when hairless, particularly legs/thighs and tummy, but I would like facial hairs because it is a clear “boy” indicator (and because stubble looks and feels hot IMO).
(As an aside I now have this odd relathionship with my hairs, rationally I know very few people would find they look right, since my body is still globally female, but I think I look so damn good with them!)
I have wide hips and don’t know if I dislike like them because they are wide or because “boys don’t have hips like that” and that it prevents me some from being seen as one.
Hum, it’s tough to describe, for me it’s a deep feeling of “It Shouldn’t Have Happened”, regarding female puberty, coupled to a big honking flashing “Wrong Wrong Wrong!!!” when I was looking at myself in a mirror and I had breasts. It’s literally what I was thinking.
It was…out of place.
When now it’s like, I truly inhabit my own body.
I have a similar feeling regarding my genitals but at a way lesser extent, and I have recently discovered how much fun I can have using them so I cope pretty well let’s just say 
I did have fun with my breasts but the wrongness feeling was too deep for the sexual stuff to overcome my dysphoria with them.
My voice, I always expected it to be lower, since there was a big difference between my internal voice and my pre-testosterone one.
The other parts of me are more cosmetic issues (as I’ve said, I think I look better with plenty of hairs, and with muscles more defined, straighter waist line etc).
Interesting reading. Thank you.
I remember a documentary about British ftms, on Channel 4 a few years ago.
There was a lovely man who had been living with his female partner for about 15 years and had 2 children, who was only now having surgery to get a penis. For him, the surgery wasn’t something he was willing to do until it had advanced to a stage he felt gave an acceptable result. He had used hormone therapy for many years, had a mastectomy and felt that a penis was merely “icing on the cake”.
There was a couple who both wanted to begin sex re-assignment treatment, and to continue their relationship. However after beginning hormone therapy, one of them realised that he was no longer attracted to his partner, since he was attracted to butch women, rather than men, and the relationship ended.
This man also had difficulty beginning his treatment, as he was required to undergo a pelvic examination, and found the idea so traumatic that he preferred to go without treatment rather than submit to it. I think he eventually was able to begin private treatment (in the UK much sex re-assignment therapy is on the NHS).
I think the programme said that many ftms keep their internal reproductive organs. I would imagine some people may need to visit a gynaecologist at some point after re-assignment, a situation which I imagine could cause a fair amount of trauma and upset if not handled correctly by the medical profession.
irishgirl there is a documentary out there called Southern Comfort, about several trans people, but it centers on an ftm who is dying because he was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. He could not find a doctor who would treat him. Some refused politely and others… less politely.
One interesting personage in that same film is an ftm who is married to a redneck-type woman-born woman. He is her fourth husband (or something ridiculous like that), and she is happier with him than with anyone. It is so touching, because if her life had been different, she may never have accepted any trans person. And here she is, happily married to one!