Ok, recently in Oregon a new law was made to bring back the pledge of alligiance every monday to all schools. I’m sure you all know the lyrics. To sum up the law it basically says:
-The pledge of alligance will be recited every monday(In my schools case, over the intercom)
-You can do one of three things: 1) Stand and recite it. 2) Stand and do nothing. 3) Sit respectfully until it is over.
Ok, sounds fair, you don’t have to do it if you don’t want to… now here’s where I bring in controversy…
In my former english class (First period), I didn’t stand for the pledge, and I got no objections(except from students, who were either really into the pledge or too scared to join me).
I transfered out of that period, and another kid(I hate to use bad adjectives, but he most likely doesn’t do any work, and does drugs) got in trouble for the same exact thing(Almost like a scientific experiment, same period, same teacher, mayber she was in a bad mood though). I figue there are a few reasons he was targeted and not I:
-I am not afraid to argue with a teacher.
-I was a “good” student.
-He was most likely an easier target than I.
For the record, there are a good amount of teachers who do require everyone to stand. Somehow I always sit though(I’m just good like that, ).
I am curious on:
What are your feelings about the law in general.
What are your feelings about the behavior my english teacher showed.
You’re going to get a few interesting posts on that…
I never said the pledge in High School, and my teachers never bothered me to. However, there were teachers in my High School that did try to require it - my friend John used to carry a copy of the ACLU handbook for teens around just so he could point out the laws in question whenever teachers bothered him about it (by the end of the year the Hall Moniter/Security Guard people were scared of him…)
My suggestion is to get into contact with that student and help him out. My experience with High Schools is that they would dearly like to keep people ignorant of their options with regards to the pledge, and if they think they can get away with it they will punish someone for not saying the pledge. Don’t let them.
When I go to my kids’ school (yes, more than one kid, plbth) and the pledge is recited, I say it too. “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands. One nation, {close mouth} indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”
I say it loud. My brief silence is audible. That’s my take on it.
I find loyalty oaths to be an egregious contradiction of the principles of freedom, especially when they are mandatory, and especially when forced on children who might not know any better.
Disclaimer: I was an Army brat and required to say the pledge for the first 6 years of my schooling. No civilian school I ever attended required the pledge.
I’ve never had a problem with the pledge of allegiance. I live in this country, I love this country, and I’m proud to say I’m a part of it. I do not, however, speak the word “God,” not necessarily because I’m an Atheist, but rather because I don’t think he belongs in there from a state standpoint, and I don’t think he’s required in order for me to pledge my allegiance to my country.
If this is how the law is worded, this seems perfectly fair to me.
All this seems to be directly contrary to the law, which specifically says you do not have to participate. Any teacher who penalizes or harasses a student for not participating, or any teacher who requires any student to act contrary to their wishes should be disciplined, not only because they’re acting unethically, but because if they’re not careful the ACLU will be all over them.
The examples given have hit upon the heart of the matter – group activity by schoolchildren in a supervised classroom are almost never devoid of coersion. I applaud those students who posess the self-assurance and conviction to resist pressure from both peers and istructors, but I fear that in my experience such qualities are rare among schoolchildrn.
Indoctrination of children has always been a very effective way for a group to concentrate and maintain political power (Little Red Book, anyone?). It is not, however, a tactic worhty of a society that calls itself “free”.
Forgive my ingnorance, as well as my age, but what is the current law/practice in most states? Is the pledge generally no longer said?
When I was in HS (late 70s) we always said it. No one questioned it. A teacher brought up the fact that there was discussion of banning it. Some thought that was shocking, and only commie pinkos would refuse to take the pledge. Most of us just thought, “Yeah, that’ll be the day, when they ban it. It’ll never happen.” But did it?
The good, if uninformed, folks in the Oregon legislature should check Supreme Court precedents. In West Virginia State Board of Education vs. Barnette,(1943), the Court ruled,
“2. The action of a State in making it compulsory for children in the public schools to salute the flag and pledge allegiance – by extending the right arm, palm upward, and declaring, “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands; one Nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all” – violates the First and Fourteenth Amendments.”
In addition, there is something ludicrous in forcing people
in a free society to pledge loyalty to the state. While I am happy to recite the pledge of allegiance, it’s my loyalty to the principles of freedom that helps me support those who choose not to pledge.
I went to Catholic elementary and high school and by high school did not want to pledge the flag. We had it piped into homeroom every day and you stood for that and then sat down for prayer and announcements. High school (ours was a hotbed of conformity anyway) was in the good old cold war days so I was the only person (commie?) who thought pledging allegiance to a country wasn’t appropriate. I discussed the issue with my parents and after my homeroom teacher called me out on it once they wrote an explanation letter and that teacher, not happy, ignored me from then on.
I think the law is a sop to people who equate the pledge with Mom, apple pie, and the Collapse of Freedom. It does not require students to recite the pledge, but it does require them to hear it. It has no legs and no teeth, but sadly (IMO, of course) it probably won’t raise enough hackles to be shot down in the courts.
Hard to say about your english teacher with the information you’ve given, but my immediate guess is that you refuse to stand for the pledge on principle (which the teacher respected), while your fellow student refused to stand just to be a jerk (which he/she did not respect). But again, that’s just a guess.
Int he “anything else” category, I find the Pledge of Allegiance to be offensive. I think that to pledge loyalty first to a piece of cloth and only secondly to the republic is to spit on the people who fought and died for that republic and the ideals upon which it was founded. I have the same reaction to those who tell me that US military veterans “died for the flag.” If they did, they were misguided. I would hope that they died for their nation instead. Nitpicky, perhaps, but as the child of four generations of vets, it’s a little pet peeve of mine.
Further, I agree completely with PLD and Spiritus. IMHO, requiring an oath of loyalty to the State is abhorrent, and smacks of the monarchies, dictatorships and fascisms we as a nation so often pride ourselves on opposing.
Well, when I use the word respect, I mean don’t talk or disrupt it. 3 or 4 people (for the record, from completely different ‘cliques’) told me he wasn’t doing anything I didn’t do.
Why we refuse to stand is irrelivant. How we sit is relavant.
Here’s the technicallity, the law does not force the student to do it, the teachers do(Which if I really wanted to, I could research the law better, and possibly sue the school). I have some problem with the pledge, but I have more of a problem with them making me do it (or at least trying). You have to pick your battles, and to be honest, they can say the pledge, and they can offer people to have the right to repeat it, but I feel they should make it clear to everyone that they may sit.
Are you still in school? The reason I ask is that I’m surprised that teachers are making a big deal out of it. I was a substitute teacher in a rural school district for a couple of years and had a chance to work in classrooms ranging from pre-school to adult ed. Even in that district, where one might think that patriotism, fear of God and a healthy appetite for apple pie would almost surely get everyone out of the desks, there was a lot of attention paid to students who would not stand for the pledge.
Most of these kids fell into the Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah’s Witness categories, not your average card-carrying memebers of the ACLU. Still, even the classroom aides were very sensitive to who would not participate.
Myself, I would stand respectfully as the class recited it. Some kids asked why I didn’t repeat the words, and that started a couple of discussions about my own beliefs. Nothing major. It seemed a rather small, relatively insignificant part of the day. Which is why I question even saying it in the first place.
Now, don’t even get me started on that whole “moment of silence” thing!
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