Plot to blow up 10 US airplanes over Atlantic - credible threat, or rumour-mongering?

Great Debates
61

[QUOTE=Evil One]

While some of us are busy revealing intelligence gathering methods in the newspaper and trying to keep prisoners from being interrogated, the people that want to kill us (pause for retching) are hard at work. They were stopped this time, but eventually they will succeed. Their efforts will be made more difficult if we were all willing to face reality and face up to the concept of getting our hands dirty. Those opposing some of the harsher measures necessary to face the threat are either blissfully unaware of its existence or are willing to sacrifice American lives for their principles.
[/QUOTE]

Why do you hate the Constitution?

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“Reportedly”. Did you notice how easily you swallowed that, how it slid down your gullet without a bump? “Reportedly”. Reported by those people most certain to benefit? Not the teensiest little bit of skepticism, E1? None whatsoever? Because the Bushivik reputation for candor and honesty is so spotless?

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[QUOTE=elucidator]
I’m guessing its the same people who “find institutions like the CIA and the military ideologically offensive.” Amish?
[/QUOTE]

Anabaptists, actually.

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[QUOTE=Evil One]
Those opposing some of the harsher measures necessary to face the threat are either blissfully unaware of its existence or are willing to sacrifice American lives for their principles.
[/QUOTE]
In a just few months, the sacrifice of American lives in Iraq will surpass the number of dead on 9/11, yet this latest terror plot exposes once more the specious nature of the administration’s ‘fly paper’ rationale for being there. Is it so much worse to sacrifice American lives for principles than it is to sacrifice them for bullshit?

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[QUOTE=Evil One]
All of those and more roughly translate into “My ideological bias makes it uncomfortable for me to face reality”.
[/QUOTE]

No, they translate into “we are not going to allow terrorists to transform the US into a fascist state the way that some want us to.”

No- we believe that it is possible to fight terrorism while preserving freedom and principles. You, on the other hand, think that the perpetual victimhood of the US allows it to commit war crimes.

People that think that 9/11 provided carte blanche to run roughshod over the Constitution and turn the US into a torture-loving police state are a bigger threat to America than al-Qaeda could ever dream of being.

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[QUOTE=David Simmons]
It’s obvious that anyone who wants some check on executive power aids and abets those who hate us for our freedom.
[/QUOTE]

Esoteric debates with our pinkies in the air are fine until they put lives in danger.

3000 people had to die five years ago for a lot of people to face the reality of islamic terrorism. It’s apparently going to take a second similar catastrophe to provide a clue for others.

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[QUOTE=samclem]
Why do you hate the Constitution?
[/QUOTE]

Is that snark or beveity, Sam? Do you really think that your question effectively addresses all the points I’m making or are you just trying to be flippantly dismissive?

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[QUOTE=elucidator]
“Reportedly”. Did you notice how easily you swallowed that, how it slid down your gullet without a bump? “Reportedly”. Reported by those people most certain to benefit? Not the teensiest little bit of skepticism, E1? None whatsoever? Because the Bushivik reputation for candor and honesty is so spotless?
[/QUOTE]

Luci, if you refuse to take anything the administration says at face value until a Democrat is elected, we’ll never be able to discuss anything. Since neither of us had a seat at the National Security Council briefing, niether of us can say with absolute certainty whether it was true or not.

I think it’s reasonable to assume that the NSA contributed since that’s what its function is…to monitor communications, especially overseas. Is the fact that they helped after the flap with the Times too delicious to resist pointing out? Apparently. I would have done it too.

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[QUOTE=Squink]
In a just few months, the sacrifice of American lives in Iraq will surpass the number of dead on 9/11, yet this latest terror plot exposes once more the specious nature of the administration’s ‘fly paper’ rationale for being there. Is it so much worse to sacrifice American lives for principles than it is to sacrifice them for bullshit?
[/QUOTE]

Nice analogy, Sqink…of course the two situations are similar. Except for the face that the 9/11 victims were innocent civilians and the soldiers are volunteers. And the stated purpose of the Iraq war versus the goals of the terrorists. And the fact that the United States is spending a lot of money to rebuild the infrastructure of Iraq and tries to avoid civilian casualties.

(I’ll pause while you to scream “Haditha” to try and muddy the waters. You know as well as I do that a few isolated incidents don’t indict an entire army.)

So you think the Iraq war is all for bull excrement? None of the stated goals are worth attaining?

70

Actually this segways neatly into a point the frequently useful Juan Cole has linked to. That is: that this outstanding effort against terrorism came about through the British treating the problem as one of law enforcement and methodically applying the same crime prevention techniques such activites merit. You know, law enforcement, that object of scorn and derision in recent US history.

Problem is ‘law enforcement’ isn’t productive of enough death and explosions to satiate a congregation of minds rotted on nascar, rock and roll wrestling and the stars and stripes.

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I’ve gotta say that Evil One’s contributions to this thread should be retained as textbook examples of how not to argue a point effectively.

Straw Man argument. Please demonstrate through citation that there are any specific persons on this board who have said the above.

It’s not a truth just because you said it. It’s an assumption on your part, based on verey sketchy information. If you have any personal knowledge that this is factual, please present it for our evaluation.

Another straw man. No one in this thread has said any such thing. In any event, what in the fucking hell does a bunch of prisoners rotting on a US military base in Cuba, all of whom have been held for several years, who are not specifically charged with any crime, and the majority of whom authorities much more credible than yourself agree are completely innocent of any terror-related crimes, have to with this week’s UK aircraft bombing plot?

Please demonstrate, in any way you can, that any intelligence obtained from the various schlubs currently rotting in Gitmo has anything whatsoever to do with the investigation of the plot currently in the news.

And what, sir do your posts say about your ieological bias? Try and look at them objectively for a moment. I know will be difficult for you.

Sorry, I reject your enthusiastic calls for further reduction in civil liberties, for myself or anyone else. Near as I can tell, the reductions put in place already have done nothing of any significance to increase my safety, or that of anyone I know, while while I can state for certain that they have had a significant impact on such things as my quality of life and ability to do business.

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[QUOTE=Evil One]
…So you think the Iraq war is all for bull excrement? None of the stated goals are worth attaining?
[/QUOTE]
What on earth permits you to believe any of the stated goals are being pursued?

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[QUOTE=Evil One]
Esoteric debates with our pinkies in the air are fine until they put lives in danger.
[/QUOTE]
So our tried-and-true system of checks and balances is only fit for “esoteric” debate and has no place the the world of reality? And, of course, checks-and-balances is a luxury that is OK when there are no problems but when danger threatens, one man rule is the way to go?

Terrible as it was, 9/11 did not threaten the existence of the US. Abandoning our fundamental Constitutional system because you happen to be afraid does threaten to change the US drastically and for the worse.

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[QUOTE=BobLibDem]
No, they translate into “we are not going to allow terrorists to transform the US into a fascist state the way that some want us to.”

[/QUOTE]

“fascist state”? Do you really believe that aggressive interrogation (or “torture” if you want to turn up the hyperbole) will become SOP for people accused of stealing cable or with too many parking tickets? Are you picturing hard men in black sunglasses listening to you order pizza on the phone? Are you expecting loyalty oaths before you are allowed to shop for food? At the end of it all, you are opposing effective methods of fighting terrorism because of some ambiguous “slippery slope” that doesn’t hold up on closer examination.

[QUOTE=BobLibDem]

No- we believe that it is possible to fight terrorism while preserving freedom and principles.

Please enlighten me with your prospective methods.

[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=BobLibDem]

You, on the other hand, think that the perpetual victimhood of the US allows it to commit war crimes.

People that think that 9/11 provided carte blanche to run roughshod over the Constitution and turn the US into a torture-loving police state are a bigger threat to America than al-Qaeda could ever dream of being.
[/QUOTE]

“war crimes”…“run roughshod”…“police state”. I’m sure the jackboots will be kicking down my door any minute now. The people trying to fight islamic terror have real incidents to point to and real methods for fighting back.

Your side has rhetoric and paranoia.

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With all due awe, E1, those aren’t “points”. Those are parodys, misrepresentations of your opponents views fobbed off as fact. You want to pretend that those who disagree with you simply refuse to face the facts, facts that hard-headed realists like yourself can manfully confront. Facts like “Curveball”? Facts like the undeniable plot between ObL and Saddam? Facts like the “vast warehouses full of WMD”?

Those the facts you want us to face?

And even if we accept that the emergency requires some extraordinary limitations on our cherished rights, can you tell me why you insist that we trust these people with those decisions? Is it because this whole Iraq adventure is going along so peachy-keen, I should trust my life to the architects of this cluster-fuck? Why do you imagine that multiplying our enemies makes us safer? Why do you insist that we place our safety in the hands of people who are demonstrated fuck-ups?

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[QUOTE=Sevastopol]
Actually this segways neatly into a point the frequently useful Juan Cole has linked to. That is: that this outstanding effort against terrorism came about through the British treating the problem as one of law enforcement and methodically applying the same crime prevention techniques such activites merit. You know, law enforcement, that object of scorn and derision in recent US history.

[/QUOTE]

From what I understand British laws on search and seizure are somewhat more liberal than ours. That’s what allowed them to monitor some of the participants on “suspicion” instead of documented evidence.

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[QUOTE=Evil One]
The people trying to fight islamic terror have real incidents to point to and real methods for fighting back.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, like dropping white phosphorus on children, slaughtering civilian families in their homes, detaining and torturing people be they innocent or guilty, and invading sovereign states that had nothing to do with what appears to be the center of your life, 9/11.

[QUOTE=Evil One]
Your side has rhetoric and paranoia.
[/QUOTE]

My side has the US Constitution.

78

[QUOTE=Evil One]
Nice analogy, Sqink…of course the two situations are similar. Except for the face that the 9/11 victims were innocent civilians and the soldiers are volunteers. And the stated purpose of the Iraq war versus the goals of the terrorists. And the fact that the United States is spending a lot of money to rebuild the infrastructure of Iraq and tries to avoid civilian casualties.
[/QUOTE]
Lofty goals, whatever they may be, cannot be reached by sacrificing any number of American lives to a crappy strategy. As far as I can tell the current strategy is ‘pray for a miracle’. That’s a crappy strategy, and one not worth supporting, no matter how frightening the terrorists are.

79

[QUOTE=El_Kabong]

Straw Man argument. Please demonstrate through citation that there are any specific persons on this board who have said the above.

[/QUOTE]

Oh please. Go back and read the threads on the NSA monitoring issue. Are you seriously going to tell me that nobody made that argument? It’s the centerpiece of the oppostion to the idea. And if I spent the time to get a cite for you, you would dismiss it as "“out of context”.

[QUOTE=El_Kabong]

It’s not a truth just because you said it. It’s an assumption on your part, based on verey sketchy information. If you have any personal knowledge that this is factual, please present it for our evaluation.

[/QUOTE]

See my response to Luci. It’s not a lie just because they said it either. Unless you are willing…as he apparently is…to live in that world.

[QUOTE=El_Kabong]

Please demonstrate, in any way you can, that any intelligence obtained from the various schlubs currently rotting in Gitmo has anything whatsoever to do with the investigation of the plot currently in the news.

[/QUOTE]

You are asking me to do something you know I can’t do to make your rhetorical point. Neither of us know what intelligence has been gleaned from those prisoners or where it has led. It’s likely we never will.

[QUOTE=El_Kabong]

And what, sir do your posts say about your ieological bias? Try and look at them objectively for a moment. I know will be difficult for you.

[/QUOTE]

Ideological bias is what I’ve spent all morning sparring with you guys about. If you want to label my desire to prevent terrorism and willingness to accept what the current administration says about the incident at face value as ideological bias, then I guess I’m guilty.

[QUOTE=El_Kabong]

Sorry, I reject your enthusiastic calls for further reduction in civil liberties, for myself or anyone else. Near as I can tell, the reductions put in place already have done nothing of any significance to increase my safety, or that of anyone I know, while while I can state for certain that they have had a significant impact on such things as my quality of life and ability to do business.
[/QUOTE]

What further reductions in civil liberties have I “enthusiastically” called for?

80

[QUOTE=Sevastopol]
What on earth permits you to believe any of the stated goals are being pursued?
[/QUOTE]

Why do you think they aren’t?