I think the point about having a baby in the show still stands. Note that they grew the baby up in super-speed – they knew they’d fucked up big time.
There have been all sorts of sustained subplots about Willow and the Watcher and so forth. It may ultimately be about Buffy, but over six or seven seasons, they took a few detours.
I don’t write fanfic as there are copyright problems. I do write my own fiction, for which I get paid. That does stroke my ego.
I agree, it was a plot point for an ep. I think it was a mistake to let it be just that. They had a tasty character and an interesting situation going there. “Plotlines that didn’t go where you thought they would” IS the thread topic.
</HIJACK>
This season of 24 didn’t even APPROACH what I expected the storyline to be.
When ST-tNG first aired, I thought they were going to kill off Picard and make Kirk-clone Riker capitan.
I’ll never forget calling up my friend Todd after the pilot and how he referred to Troi as Wanda Melnick, Psychic to the Stars.
I thought Levar Burton would eventually escape from the plantation and get half his foot cut off, but…
I too was pleasantly surprised. I was sure they were going to take the easy, conventional, and stupid route. Even as the film progressed and Diaz’s character continued to be portrayed as likeable (and wasn’t suddenly revealed to be a gambling addict or something), I kept thinking “Gosh, I’m going to feel really sorry for her when Julia Roberts takes off with her fiance!”
On the other hand, there’s A Knight’s Tale. I saw it (for free, the perfect price for that movie IMHO) in the campus theater, and afterwards everyone who’d seen it with me agreed that it would have been much better if Heath Ledger’s character had ditched “Princess Bitch” for Kate the Hot Blacksmith. Or if they’d given Kate some kind of interesting ending. She was a good and interesting character and she deserved better. I also thought that if the movie was going to take the step of using anachronistic music, they could have been a bit more daring in their song selection. I was sure they were setting up a “London Calling” sequence, but I guess that would have been too edgy or something. :rolleyes: And don’t even get me started on the “Golden Years” dance number…geesh.
Not to turn this into “What Buffy Plotlines didn’t go where you thought they’d go”…BUT…
In Season 7 Buffy, before they brought Caleb in, myself and my two sisters convinced ourselves that Buffy was under control of The First. I’m sure I’ll forget all of the reasoning, but it started with Anya and Giles’ talk with the Eyeball Demon, who told them something along the lines of bringing back the slayer (from her death in The Gift) mucked up the balance, allowing The First to gain some type of an advantage. Then, there was all the “She came back wrong” stuff in S6. Plus, Buffy, since she came back in S6 acted very differntly from S1-5 in my opinion. Then, there was Dawn’s dream/visit/whatever from Joyce that said “In the end, Buffy won’t choose you”. So we convinced ourselves (actually we were just really hoping) that Buffy would be the “big bad” and the scoobies would have to re-kill her. We were torn if it would be Giles, her mentor who loved her like a father, or Spike, who didn’t want them to bring her back in S6 becasue he was afraid if she came back “wrong” they’d have to kill her, and he wasn’t sure he could do that. Then again, i’m sure this wouldn’t have gone over too well with most fans…but I would have loved it.
So let me make sure I understand you. Joss came up with this complicated plan that started as early as S2 when Angel slept with vamp!Darla. He then brought Darla back pregnant and focused several episodes on the pregnancy, the angst Angel was going through, the pain of having a soul for Darla, and the beautiful scene where Darla killed herself so Connor could be born…only to decide he massively fucked up and the arc he planned since possibly mid-season 2 was not viable? So at the last minute, he decided it would be great if he worked in Holtz…cuz see, all those flashbacks to Holtz throughout early S3 was going nowhere. They were there for comedy really, no more. Ok, so he had Holtz just hanging out, and decided “Hey, I’ll use him!” ANd that Sajhan guy that was introduced early S3? Well obviously hedidn’t have a purpose either.
So once Joss decided to scrap a storyline he had been working on focusing on baby!Connor and bring in two characters that apparently had nothing to do with anything before, he decided it would be good to, off the cuff, have Wes read the prophecy…You know what? I can’t even continue. It’s too ridiculous.
Joss didn’t realize he fucked up and so suddenly decided that Connor needed to go into a hell dimension. That was the plan from the beginning. That was why we were introduced to Holtz so early. That was why we were introduced to Sajhan so early. It also was the story that sent Wes spiraling into Dark!Wes and hot sex with Lilah and his seperation from the group. Do you think they took that lightly? That it just came to them sometime mid-season and decided “Well the kid sucks, let’s run with it!”
Your thesis about the Katrina situation is wacky, but I can see it. Your contention that Connor was matured at super-speed because Joss “fucked up” makes me think you didn’t even watch the show.
As for me, I thought Spike would ultimately be human this season. James said at the Tampa he’d be a ghost. Later he said he’d be a vampire. Then he told another person he’d be a human. Well, there are two possibilities. James is a massive liar (which kinda is the case) or he was giving people bits of the truth. We got ghost!Spike, we got vamp!Spike…I figured by 18 or 19 we’d have human!Spike as well.
EXACTLY.
I had high hopes for that movie, but was so disgusted with the ending. I thought, “Is this what the public wants now? Is this what people think is a good ending? He ends up with this shallow, stuck up bitch, when the REAL girl is right under his nose, being useful and competent and so much more interesting? But they don’t let anything happen with her?”
I was depressed after that movie. And I did think that it had potential. At the beginning. But, yuck. What a rotten ending.
Go back and rewatch seasons 2 and 3, then tell me “they knew they’d fucked up big time”. :rolleyes:
Now Pep, can I call you Pep? I’ll call you Pep. You do know that Joss Whedon isn’t the only person who works on those shows, right? There’s alot of talented writers and producers who work very hard. And it’s actually horribly offensive when so called Buffy fans continually negate their massive contributions to the universe. Especially since Joss Whedon was off prepping Firefly for a huge chunk of the time you described.
Give props to Greenwalt, Noxon, Petrie, etc. etc.
Your posts on the subject are always well-thought out and interesting and I look forward to reading them.
To Petelin
I thought Buffy would maybe end up being the big bad as well. Not because she was EVIL but because she had become of victim of her own power. I was glad they atleast made that a plot issue.
I really enjoyed the fact that for the last half of the season the two most popular characters on the show (Buffy and Spike) were the least likable.
Your points about the show’s internal logic make sense, but I also remember the critics working “Angel” over pretty good about the baby storyline, and ratings dropping. The term “jumped the shark” was used on some discussion boards as well, and not just by me. My thought would be that Whedon looked rationally at all the bad news and decided to retrench.
BTW, this is getting to be a major hijack, take it to another thread if you like, but don’t expect much participation from me – I’m not much of a Buffyista and don’t have all that much emotion invested in this topic.
YES! I thought this was a great movie and I guess the message is you don’t need a man to fufill your potential, but still - it was a super hot, young Sam Neill with that voice. And he loved her and was a nice guy and not some ogre who didn’t respect her writing.
For a brief few minutes during the Friends finale, I thought just maybe Rachel really did mean “no” and wouldn’t some back. that would have been sooo much cooler and totally defied my expectations. But no… :rolleyes:
Babylon 5 threw me for a complete loop. They built up toward a massive showdown with the Shadows, the Vorlons and the young races. They built the tension. And built it. And built it. And then when the confrontation comes, how do they resolve the battle?
They tell the ancient races to go away. Which, with a little foot-dragging and childish whining about being alone in the dark, they do. :eek:
Whoa, just lookit that shark down there in that tank. Looks happy, yes he do.
Last season of Buffy.
Okay, so we’ve got all these potential Slayers around. They’re basically useless, and there’s a big apocalyptic fight coming up.
And, hey… the first time Buffy died, another Slayer (Kendra) was called. But Buffy was resuscitated, so then we had TWO Slayers. And when Kendra died, Faith was called… so, yeah, the temporary death of a Slayer causes an additional Slayer to be created from a Potential.
So Willow’s going to cast a spell, it’s revealed, one which will turn the tide of the battle, and give the good guys the upper hand… and she’s nervous about casting it, saying it’s incredibly dangerous…
I fully envisioned, and had been expecting since season two, for a serial Slayer temporary die-off. I hoped that the spell Willow was going to cast would cause Faith to die, create a new Slayer, then resuscitate Faith, then kill the next Slayer, forming a new Slayer, and resuscitate, etc.
Worldwide. Imagine girls all over the world, suddenly becoming Slayers, dying briefly, then reviving… but keeping their Slayerhood.
Damn, that would’ve been cool. THAT’s a spell to be afraid to cast.
They wimped out.
Also, I thought that Tara was secretly Amy the Rat. After all- the last time we saw Amy the Rat was when Willow had all her wishes granted, and she even temporarily cured Amy (without being aware of it). Then the next episode, Tara (A Rat spelled backwards, even!) comes into her life… and we didn’t see Amy for a long time. I just KNEW that Willow had subconsciously turned Amy back into human, but had changed her so that Willow would have someone to love, and who would love her back.
But nooooo… they had to have that lame “family believes all female relatives are demons” business. That sucked.
EXACTLY.
I think she proved her point already. I got what the film was trying to say, and I thought it was a great message. I was glad that she “went her own way,” going against the flow, instead of just immediately trying to snag a man like everyone expected her to. But come ON. We’re talking a young hottie Sam Neill here. And he was so devoted to her, he’d never squelch her writing. He was truly a great guy and he adored her and he was heartbroken when she refused him at the end. Come ON! That’s just wrong!
But oh well. Sigh.
In the dining hall the next morning we were all saying “Didn’t they focus group this movie or anything? KATE was the real heroine, KATE KATE KATE!”
When the leading lady changed her mind about wanting Will to lose the tournament for her, I thought for sure he was going to say “Forget you Miss Thang, I’ve suddenly realized that there’s a much more worthy woman here!” I guess if Will didn’t appreciate Kate then he wasn’t good enough for her anyway, but the movie could have at least suggested that she had some kind of happy ending. I mean, we all know what happened to Chaucer, and there were hints of romance between the other sidekick guy and the lady-in-waiting, but I guess Kate just died alone and unsung. As you said, depressing.
I thought so, too. During the movie I was betting she and Roland (the big guy) would hook up. Wat was hopeless.
DD
Okay, I barely followed the show at all, but caught the last few eps… And I gotta admit, your idea ROCKS. As a matter of fact, I will now go back in time mentally and pretend that’s exactly what happened. La la la!
BTW- your sig and mine… Weird.
In Scream 3 I thought that Sidney was going to be the killer. I wanted her to be the killer just to throw it on its head and actually make the audience go “Oh my. I never thought of that”
Oh. Is this a Buffy and Angel thread now?
Buffy was alright, in the end, just because they actually ended it. I didn’t think they would kill off Tera like that, or that they would make all the characters so damn dark and dirty. At least they left it so that there would be no return to Sunnydale.
As for Angel…well I can understand everything up to The Beast, and then it all became dark and dirty characters, and interesting new camera shots.
Except for a moment of dying… that’s what they did do.
And the version you described (killing a slayer, reviving, repeat until an army of slayers is created) was talked to death by Buffy fans so it would have been old hat if that’s the method they chose.
The danger of the spell wasn’t for the Slayers it was for Willow herself. That was a MAJOR spell and one she apparently had to tap into shiny happy good time power (hence the white hair instead of black) Willow was horribly afraid of her own power so her ability to tap into that much power and not go veiny and black eyed showed her ability to stay in control. I honestly wanted her to burn up after casting the spell, unknowingly sacrificing herself at the end.
And since Slayerhood is some sort of metaphor for womanhood… the whole dying and coming back thing would be kind of odd.