Plumbing question (shut off valves)

Factual Questions
1

So I’ve googled, and I’m not finding a straight answer. And the person at Ace was less than helpful (reminding me why I don’t go to Ace).

One of my projects for this break is to replace the faucet in my bathroom sink. It’s old, rusty and just looks terrible. The replacement itself doesn’t look so hard - I’ve got all the pieces and I’m ready to go, except…
One of the shut off valves below the sink is lacking a knob to turn it off. I’d prefer not to have a plumber in if I don’t have to. Is there a way to turn the water off and on without there being a knob?

I’m finding instructions to replace the cutoff valves, and that’s a possibility, but it means finding the water shutoff for the whole building and informing my neighbors - and that’s an added pressure because if I screw up and it takes longer, it’s not just about me, but about the whole building (I live in an apartment-style condo).

2

Is the stem still there? If so, you can probably turn it with vise grips, or take the knob off of the other valve and use it to turn the valve stem.

3

Best to bite the bullet now and install (or have installed) shutoff valves below the sink, for both hot and cold supplies. In the future, when (not if, but when) you have to change cartridges or valves in the replacement faucet, you won’t have to shut the whole building off again.

EDIT: Seems that I failed to fully read the OP. Let’s try again…

Best to bite the bullet now and replace the shutoff valve while you’re doing plumbing work anyway. Personally, I’d replace both if they’re the least bit crusty-looking. Crusty outside, in my experience, means crusty inside, and a guarantee to not fully shut off.

4

You can buy replacement knobs, they usually have a square nut but sometimes they’re threaded. Take a photo of your situation and bring it to the hardware store.

Be extra careful working with those shut off valves; if you break them off you’re looking at an expensive repair and/or emergency plumber fee. Replacing them (especially old ones) usually involves hacksaws, solder and brazing, so they’re not exactly 1 hour fixes. You mentioned there was a main water shutoff? Definitely familiarize yourself with that!

One last thing: If you don’t have a basin wrench, get one.

5

Thanks, all. The stem is still there, so that may be a possibilty, Crotalus. They are old looking - I don’t know how old (I bought the place 18 months ago. 6 weeks in I had to replace the water heater that had been out of warranty since 1994, so they could be at least that old, but I have no way of knowing).

Since the faucet replacement is completely cosmetic in nature, I may hold off on that, have the shut off valves replaced by a plumber after the new year (I really don’t want an emergency plumber call over the holidays), and replace the faucet after that.

And if I go that route, I’ll have the ones for kitchen checked at the same time.

6

This. Know where it is and verify you have access to it before your job begins. If things go badly, you don’t want a 1/4" pipe blasting water into your bathroom for a half-hour before the landlord can get there.

ISTM somewhere there ought to be a shutoff for each separate residence (in addition to the whole-building shutoff). Perhaps ask the landlord about this before you begin. Then there’s no pressure; if you end up having to replace the shutoff valves, you can kill the water to just your residence while you take your time finishing the job.

I’ve had to replace under-sink shutoff valves before; the hot-water valves always seem to get crusty after many years, and tend not to shut off 100% (or the stem packing starts leaking when you try to turn the knob, and you can’t tighten the packing nut cuz it’s too damn crusty…).

7

Looks like most everything involved with your project has been covered already … just a word of caution using vise-grips or pliers on the handle-less stem to the supply valve … you’ll be able to apply shitloads of force on the valve this way … more than needed to snap the fool thing off … be gentle … maybe be running the water while you turn so you’ll know exactly when it’s completely off … and thus know exactly when to stop turning …

My addition here is with the two flexible pipes that run from your supply valve to your new faucet … surely these are as old as the faucet and supply valve themselves … I’d recommend replacing these as well … just from experience, sometimes they’ll come off and never quite seat back in, and then leak … new supply pipes work the first time, every time, and in the long term they are your best economy …

Replacing the supply valves is not a bad idea … but do consider the cost/benefit ratio … even having to replace the faucet washers every five years, it’s still just the hassle of getting out the pliers again to turn the supply valve off … compare that to hiring a plumber to replace the valves … where the balance is is strictly up to you … just making sure you get top quality replacement valves … not the cheap garbage the original builders put in …

8

OK, from the top:

If the problem is that the knob on one of the below-the-lavy shut-off valves is missing:

Either use the knob from the other below-the-lavy shut-off, as suggested by Crotalus. Remove the retaining screw in the center of the other valve and slip it on the problem valve.
And: note the type of shaft - is it knurled or square? A shut-off valve is about $10 at the big box - buy one and use its knob - until you get around to replacing the valve.

Now:
If you are in a house, find and verify that the main shut-off for the entire house* still works.
If you live in a multi-unit building, there is/really should be a shut-off for your unit. You will want to know where it is and if you can get your hands on it at will. The owner may allow only real plumbers access to discourage DIY projects by people of unknown skill level.

Little-known factoid about compression-fitted valves on rigid copper pipes:
The parts which go on the pipe cannot be removed without cutting the pipe (the compression ring is permanent). If you are careful and do not harm the ring or its nut, they can be re-used for a few times. VERY carefully hold the compression nut so it does not turn as you unscrew THE VALVE.
DO NOT TRY TO TURN THE NUT (it probably won’t want to turn anyway). Then screw on the new valve, making sure the outlet points toward the fixture (usually that means UP).

The size of the compression nut and especially the size of the ring are STANDARD - every valve you find for a 1/2" copper pipe uses the exact same parts for those - which is why you can buy replacement compression rings at hardware stores.

IOW: Unless you do not have compression valves (if built in last 40 or so years, they are undoubtedly compression), you CAN replace the shut-off valves using only handyman (“handyperson” is just wrong!) skills.
Just have a few extra valves handy - and, at $10 ea, this is much cheaper than a plumber.

  • This house had a broken main shut-off (and a very half-assed DIY sprinkler install - the moron broke the shut-off by using it to control his brilliant sprinkler job (NOTE: Finish the sprinkler system BEFORE connecting it to the house)
9

Just a thought but do you pay a separate bill for your water or is it included with your condo fees?

If separate, there should be a separate meter for your unit with a separate cutoff as well. Perhaps the condo manager could advise.

10

No, water is paid by the association. I went through contacting the association when I dealt with the water heater: the only shut-off is for full buildings, not individual units. If I could shut off for just mine, I’d have no problem stumbling through replacing the shutoff valve myself - I’m handy enough and can follow directions well, so I’m pretty sure I’d be ok.

Thanks for the various suggestions, all. Now I just need to decide whether to chance it and try the shutoff valve, or wait and have them replaced. It’s times like this that I miss renting. :slight_smile:

11

the following dissertation is in regard to shut-off valves (i.e. underneath sink/tub) … not faucet-valves (above sink).

first off, lsura … you come on to the message board … embodying yourself as some prescient deity who has the authority to judge some employee at ace-hardware. that employee could be a school-kid trying to pay for his college tuition … or could be an older man who cannot yet afford to retire … or could be the hardware store owner’s son. you don’t know.

let’s look at your own shortcomings for a moment.
[ol]
[li]where are the picture*(s)* you took of the valve and the immediate surrounding area? what? you didn’t take one? how could you show ace-hardware what the specific issue is … without a picture?how can you come onto this message-board and not post a picture for others to assist you?[/li][li]the internet is full of tutorials and documents … showing, step by step, how to change a light-bulb … same goes for plumbing tutorials.[/li][li]ace-hardware (home improvement center) can sell you a book on plumbing … libraries retain reference material as well … plumbing supply houses offer illustrations to view.[/li][/ol]

you are living in a condo, lsura … this was your decision … nobody put gun to your head and forced you. before you signed the papers, did you ask yourself if you could accept the responsibility? did you ask yourself what you will do if there is plumbing issue? electrical issue? foundation issue? or, were you just thinking of yourself … instead of everyone in your little community (the building’s other tenants).

owning a separate house is one thing … you are responsible only to yourself*(and family)*. sharing a building with others is a whole other story … you are responsible for every soul in that building. i can tell you … if i lived in a condo, where a spurious 'n impetuous runt such as yourself was planning to “rig” some plumbing crap together to satisfy his ego … i’d be knocking on your door with a shot-gun aimed at the left side of your chest.

find yourself a competent plumber (check refs), lsura … ask him to replace the shut-off valves underneath the sink. ensure that he uses gate-valve or ball-valve rather than the popular/cheap washer-valves. ordinarily, i’d suggest you choose/purchase the valves yourself … but, from what i have read in your post, you might miss the boat. discuss with the plumber … that your preference for the above valves is for dependability 'n durability. this discussion takes place before he shuts off the building’s water-main. when he shows you the valves he has chosen, make sure he affirms the chosen valves have no plastic parts and no rubber bushings*(washers)* … as these have a tendency in prematurely wearing out.

make sure your neighbors have been notified in advance. then, have the plumber shut off the water-main and replace the shut-off valves. you, personally, make certain the joints are solid. make sure there is no seepage at all.

while at it … consider all the other valves in your specific unit … bathroom sink … toilet … tub … half-bathroom … kitchen … ice-maker … dish/clothes washers … garbage disposal … exhaust-ducts. the plumber charges for each service call … maybe get that leaky bathtub faucet replaced while he’s at your unit.

from here, forward … you can replace the upper water-faucets yourself, lsura. if you manage to screw this up … close the shut-off valve and repair/clean-up the mess you caused. at least others in the building will not be at risk from you.

and, remember … once a year (new years day) … open and shut every valve in your unit (even shut-off valves) … this will help to keep them from seizing. never, ever, force any valve … this can cause washers to strip … gaskets to rupture … cereamic-disks to crack. as for vise-grips? imho, vise-grips should never be used in plumbing … period. that’s what wrenches are specifically engineered for.

additionally, once a year:
[ul]
[li]replace batteries in smoke-detectors (and clocks).[/li][li]replace air-filters.[/li][li]if you have garage-door opener … lube the chain/drive.[/li][li]you may consider emptying/flushing hot-water heater.[/li][li]some people use bacteria-eating gel within their outlet plumbing … check with HOA (home owners association) before doing so.[/li][li]the locks on all your doors … lubricate them with wd-40 at this time.[/li][/ul]
come winter time, leave a gap in your cupboard door so the pipes gain a bit of warmth and are less likely to freeze … check outside if there are any valves adjoining your unit that need to be covered … again, talk with HOA first.

best of luck with your project, lsura … i will be rooting for your success.

p.s. and, for god’s sake … buy a book on plumbing. a $30 book will allow you to confer in a more concise 'n dictatorial manner with your plumber … and might make him think twice about scamming you. either way, he will be impressed with your tact 'n resolve.

12

Yes, Lsura, a concise 'n dictatorial manner is what is needed here. Throw in a bit of patronizing for good measure. We’re all rooting for you.

13

Wow, could it be possible someone may work at Ace Hardware?

14

ETA: partly ninja’ed by albino_manatee. But I hope I can be less confrontational.

In Florida it is a 3rd class felony for a condo owner to do DIY work on their unit where a licensed worker is required. The threshold for work requiring a licensed worker, or requiring a construction permit from the city is also a *lot *lower than a typical homeowner used to DIY would ever suspect. e.g. changing an electrical socket requires an electrician.

Which is not to say that these laws are always followed scrupulously everywhere. But rest assured your homeowner’s insurance will be void if you DIYed any repair or modification ever that should have been done by a pro.
Also understand that doing DIY plumbing in a building that lacks per-unit shutoffs has the potential to become a disaster damaging several other condos and bringing large costs and headaches down on you. Ones your insurance (see above) will not cover a penny of.

Ensure you’ve talked to your condo board and/or management company before doing anything. You don’t want to be the person who floods a chunk of the building just after somebody else did the same thing; you will be made an example of.
The OP may or may not live in Florida. But many states regulate multi-family dwellings similarly for similar life safety reasons. The likelihood of your building catching fire is closely related to the crappiest work ever done to it. The goal is to avoid that.

15

Wow, you’re making a hell of a lot of assumptions about me based on one question.

16

Note that the OP wants to replace the faucet for cosmetic reasons: old, rusty and just looks terrible. An option which comes to mind is just cleaning it up. Does anyone have any advice on how to do this?

PS. Just using the other knob should work fine. It’s only if it sticks and won’t move should you hesitate–it’s when you choose the option of applying massive force that things can go wrong.

17

lol - what a lecture.

Hi Lsura,

I don’t think anyone has mentioned yet, but modern shutoff valves are almost all ball valves now and much more reliable than the old stem valves. You can identify a ball valve by the quarter turn function. I strongly recommend you get new valves and supply lines. If you can successfully close the old valves, You can put new shut offs directly on the old ones and rely on the new valves in the future. Just take a picture of the old valve so you can get a new valve with the proper fitting to fit.

Stem valves rely on a rubber washer and rubber bushing that both harden and wear out over the years. Closing the valve with a bad washer tends to damage the brass valve seat which then also needs to be replaced. The old rubber stem bushings can start to leak if you mess too much with an old worn out valve. I would try to get a new handle first before trying to force it with vice grips or pliers. Be very cautious about working an old valve with vice grips etc, if it has much turning resistance. I have seen the old stems break right off which would be disastrous in your situation with a difficult to access main shutoff.

I agree with others that a building shut-off and replacing all the shut offs in the suite is the best course of action, but understand it is much more involved. I was helping a with a reno in a 60 year old condo a couple weeks ago and needed to give a weeks warning to do a whole building shut-off, a real hassle.

18

Moderator Warning

I don’t know what brought this personal attack on, but it’s entirely inappropriate for GQ. This is an official warning for insults and being a jerk. Do not do this again.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator