Podcasts, media, and messaging (or How the Democrats can win again)

[DemonTree]

@Banquet_Bear

the truth is you won’t know what will appeal to voters until after the votes are tallied. Focus groups and polling only go so far. If anyone pre-2016 argued that Donald Trump had a political platform that would get him elected President of the United States of America twice, they would have laughed you off-stage. And yet here we are.

True.

@Banquet_Bear

Trump didn’t deliver the first time and he isn’t delivering now. Yet if he were allowed to run again (and there is a good chance they will rewrite the rulebook so he can) there is a good chance (in a free and open election) voters would return him to office.

Trump wasn’t able to deliver the first time, because he was surrounded by sane and responsible people, both in his own party and in the civil service, who stopped him implementing most of his crazy policies. And that allowed his supporters to say “real MAGA has never been tried”, and other Republicans and politically disengaged voters to say “he was President before and nothing terrible happened”.

It’s, uh, not great that so many voters were willing to overlook Jan 6, as well as various unpleasant and crazy plans. But however little he had to do with it, the US economy really was doing pretty well under Trump 1. If he tanks it this time then the true blue Magas may keep the faith, but he’ll lose everyone else.

@Banquet_Bear

Harris actually did focus on this. And the message was (and you can go back and read some of it here on these boards) was that “everything was great” even when for many it wasn’t. It’s that sort of disingenuous messaging that doesnt resonate.

That’s the exact opposite of what @Velocity proposed. It’s obviously bad to tell people that everything is fine when they don’t feel like it’s fine. But how is it different to what you are recommending? Establishment Dems looked at the indicators and they all showed the economy was doing well. So they decided people must be believing it was bad due to misinformation, and rather than accept that belief, they produced messaging to combat it. In other words, they tried to influence voters into agreeing with them. And it didn’t work.

@Banquet_Bear

Yes, actually.

No. At what point in history has the US electorate been unified around socially-left causes? 1990(!), when less than half of Americans approved of interracial marriage? 2010, when less than half of Americans approved of same-sex marriage? In 2004 a majority of Democrats opposed same-sex marriage. Changing people’s minds is hard and takes time: that’s just how things are, it’s not a sinister plot. Any winning coalition is going to have to appeal to people with a variety of views.

And you have vastly more faith in the power of messaging than I do. Back in 2020, Trump was boasting about how quickly the COVID vaccine had been developed, but even he couldn’t convince his followers to support it. His messaging was popular because he endorsed ideas that had been suppressed (and some of those really were awful, but others were widely shared frustrations that had been bubbling below the surface for years). And the mainstream press went all out to condemn him, and it just made him more popular.

We had super-progressive messaging with BLM in 2020, and it resulted in a massive backlash. And a widespread loss of trust in authorities, which fed back into the conspiratorial nature of much of the Trump right.

@Banquet_Bear

Instead: what we had at the last election from MAGA was a multi-million-dollar hate campaign targeting trans people and what we got from the Democrats was a campaign determined to not even use the word trans lest they get accused of being called “woke”. (Notice how we don’t hear the word much any more? It served its purpose)

Which comes back to “you have to persuade people”. They weren’t trying to persuade people, they were hoping to keep quiet about it and then implement those policies anyway. That has been the strategy of activist groups over the last few years - go to the top, work on changing the law and policies in institutions rather than public opinion, and silence all objections - and it’s no longer working.

So yes, you do need better messaging; you don’t just follow public opinion or sit around waiting for it to change, but you need to take account of where they are starting from.

@Banquet_Bear

And if that’s what they believe: then just pull that band-aid off right now. Having conviction isn’t something confined to only progressives. The establishment Dems can do it as well. If they don’t stand with trans people, then just say that. And if enough people think that’s a winning policy then so be it.

This is something I agree with. If liberalism is to survive, liberals need to stand up for it. They need to stand up to illiberals on both sides, and if they have doubts or disagreements, set an example by talking about them. Because that’s the point of liberalism: that by allowing that conversation, we’ll learn new information and get to the right answer. That openness to different ideas is the only way to genuinely progress as a society.

And I agree with the OP here:

@iiandyiiii

I hope more progressives go on Rogan and do this. Make it a habit. Just hearing actual progressive policies, from progressive voices, rather than filtered through liars and assholes, really could make a difference. There are millions of Americans whose only understanding of progressive and Democratic favored policies are what they hear on Fox or similar. The only way to make sure those Americans hear real progressive arguments is to go on those venues.

Refusing to do this is part of the purity politics crap, and it needs to stop.

[JRDelirious]

@iiandyiiii

But he cogently and skillfully argued for a variety of progressive policies, and I bet most of Rogan’s audience hadn’t heard those arguments before. I hope more progressives go on Rogan and do this. Make it a habit.

And strong progressives like Sanders are, if anything, safer going into those spaces because they are secure in their message. They are willing to accept that a majority of listeners will not like it. But any who do stop to listen is a move in the right direction.

[Banquet_Bear]

@DemonTree

But how is it different to what you are recommending?

…can you point out where I’m advocating for people to say that it’s sunny when in reality it’s pouring down with rain? It isn’t remotely close to what I’m reccomending at all.

@DemonTree

At what point in history has the US electorate been unified around socially-left causes?

This literally has nothing to do with anything I said.

The establishment dems messaging was targeted at a very certain demographic. I outlined what that was.

@DemonTree

And you have vastly more faith in the power of messaging than I do.

MAGA are in control of the House, the Senate, the Executive and the Supreme Court. They are in charge of multiple states and are proceeding at speed with their agenda.

And there is very little chance of turning any of that around. Because now they have the power to make institutional changes to the process so they can’t lose power again.

And they did that by taking control of the messaging. Someone very close to me (a kid, no older than seven) stumbled into a white supremacist rabbit-hole in Minecraft. She’s a good kid, and went running immediately to her mum. But you are underestimating the extent of how this ecosystem has been set up. The algorithms are set up to create feedback loops and once you start going down the rabbit hole its hard for many to get out.

@DemonTree

We had super-progressive messaging with BLM in 2020, and it resulted in a massive backlash.

It wasn’t a “backlash.”

It got smashed. As in literally beaten to a pulp. The police, the federal government, even Biden and his administration crushed the BLM movement. We saw exactly the same thing happen with the campus protests last year and we’ve seen an escalation of that with the ICE raids this year.

America has slowly been creeping towards authoritarianism. And now its at the doorstep.

[DemonTree]

@Banquet_Bear

can you point out where I’m advocating for people to say that it’s sunny when in reality it’s pouring down with rain? It isn’t remotely close to what I’m reccomending at all.

It fits what you are recommending because Dem party leaders believed it, and thought they could change voter’s minds with messaging rather than ‘meeting them where they are’ by agreeing the economy sucked and promising to change that.

Do you have any evidence the economy was bad? There is actually a decent amount of evidence that the US economy was doing okay - what makes you so sure the belief it sucked wasn’t more right-wing propaganda?

This literally has nothing to do with anything I said.

The establishment dems messaging was targeted at a very certain demographic. I outlined what that was.
[/quote]

You said they were targeting Republicans:

@Banquet_Bear

And this is the problem with how Democrat messaging in a nutshell. It needs to start with a recognition about what the target demographic for this sort of messaging really is. It’s mostly just old-school Republicans in everything but name. The never-Trumpers. The people who abandoned MAGA but never really abandoned their conservative values.

That’s what I was disagreeing with. There are plenty of Democrats who don’t have progressive values, and that is who they are targeting with this sort of messaging.

@Banquet_Bear

MAGA are in control of the House, the Senate, the Executive and the Supreme Court. They are in charge of multiple states and are proceeding at speed with their agenda.

And there is very little chance of turning any of that around. Because now they have the power to make institutional changes to the process so they can’t lose power again.

Unfortunately true. And the best hope for America is that Trump is old and incompetent, and that his particular appeal has so far proven unique to him.

But there were many factors in Trump’s win. The inflation that made so many Americans unhappy was largely external, and affected multiple countries. Biden’s incapacity and inability to go on TV and sell his policies to the electorate. The lack of a Dem primary, and consequent crowning of a candidate who was inextricably tied to the Biden administration.

@asterion talked about the demographics of who voted for Trump:

@asterion

"Pew asked non-voters how they would have voted and found they would have broken for Trump, 44%-40%. That’s a big change from 2020 and 2016 when they said they would have chosen Democrats. In 2020, they said they preferred Joe Biden 46%-35%. In 2016, it was Hillary Clinton, 37%-30%.

That upends a longstanding belief in politics that higher turnout generally helps Democrats. Younger and non-white voters, who tend to vote Democratic, are also among the least likely to vote.

But in 2024, Trump’s coalition grew – it got more ethnically diverse and younger.

The biggest swings towards Trump were among politically disengaged voters - who are more likely to be young and non-white. This makes sense, because politically engaged voters usually have strong opinions, and it’s very hard to persuade them to change their vote. It would be a mistake to assume these people are in the bag for Republicans. They could easily be peeled off again at the next election (assuming it goes ahead as planned, something that can no longer be assumed ).

@Banquet_Bear

And they did that by taking control of the messaging. Someone very close to me (a kid, no older than seven) stumbled into a white supremacist rabbit-hole in Minecraft. She’s a good kid, and went running immediately to her mum. But you are underestimating the extent of how this ecosystem has been set up. The algorithms are set up to create feedback loops and once you start going down the rabbit hole its hard for many to get out.

This… seems awfully conspiratorial. It’s not that I don’t believe there are white supremacists on Minecraft (yet another thing to worry about as a parent ). I just don’t think it’s part of a plot by… well, who? We know the algorithms promote extremism, but that’s because they are designed to promote engagement, and they can as easily push people in a left-wing direction as right, if the content is there.

@Banquet_Bear

It got smashed. As in literally beaten to a pulp. The police, the federal government, even Biden and his administration crushed the BLM movement. We saw exactly the same thing happen with the campus protests last year and we’ve seen an escalation of that with the ICE raids this year.

How did Biden’s administration crush the BLM movement? From what I’ve seen Trump’s treatment of protestors has been very different to Biden’s. Biden wasn’t deporting people just for protesting.

@Banquet_Bear

America has slowly been creeping towards authoritarianism. And now its at the doorstep.

I didn’t believe Trump would be so bad, because the Dems, and the left generally, were so clearly treating the election as business as usual. No compromise on the identity politics, no let-up on shrinking the tent. Maybe they didn’t believe how bad he could be either? But that’s definitely a messaging fail.

[CaptMurdock]

@Banquet_Bear

And there is very little chance of turning any of that around. Because now they have the power to make institutional changes to the process so they can’t lose power again.

Which is why all the talk about crafting the right message and using the media effectively is moot. It may have been a great idea ten years ago. Unfortunately, the tipping point is behind us and it’s not going to end in a nice, normal election.

[Banquet_Bear]

@CaptMurdock

Unfortunately, the tipping point is behind us and it’s not going to end in a nice, normal election.

…while I don’t disagree with you, the thing about authoritarian regimes is that sometimes they do end. And what I think we will see in America is increased Balkanisation, for want of a better word. And that’s going to be an important part of the “fight back” or the “resistance.”

So messaging is absolutely still important. But it serves an entirely different purpose now. Every election still needs to be fought, every battle should be treated as important, even if you lose. And I think that ultimately it won’t be the Democrats (as we know it) that will be leading the charge. They just aren’t capable of recognising how much the world has changed.

@DemonTree

It fits what you are recommending because Dem party leaders believed it

Do they?

Really?

I doubt they even care.

Because when we are talking about “crafting the message” I’m not necessarily talking about the “dem party leaders” but more about the think-tanks and consultants and pundits who hold just as much responsibility for the direction the party has gone.

@DemonTree

Do you have any evidence the economy was bad?

I didn’t actually say the “economy was bad.”

I said:

@Banquet_Bear

And the message was (and you can go back and read some of it here on these boards) was that “everything was great” even when for many it wasn’t.

And the way I phrased that was important and your response to me outlined exactly why I phrased it that way. You can produce all of the metrics in the world to argue that the “economy wasn’t bad” and that would mean absolutely nothing to the person who just lost their job and was living in their car.

@DemonTree

You said they were targeting Republicans:

No I didn’t. And what you quoted backs me up. I said " mostly just old-school Republicans in everything but name." As in people that aren’t Republicans any more. Never-Trumpers. People that abandoned MAGA. I later clarified this to include swing voters.

@DemonTree

There are plenty of Democrats who don’t have progressive values, and that is who they are targeting with this sort of messaging.

Did you see the part there where I said “mostly?”

@DemonTree

The inflation that made so many Americans unhappy was largely external, and affected multiple countries. Biden’s incapacity and inability to go on TV and sell his policies to the electorate. The lack of a Dem primary, and consequent crowning of a candidate who was inextricably tied to the Biden administration.

The “inflation” is in part due to the disingenuous messaging on the economy from the Dems that I mentioned before. And everything else here…messaging played an important part.

And its not as if I’m arguing that messaging was the only thing that doomed the Democrats at the last election. Its just that this thread is about messaging. And I’m simply staying on topic. If you want all of my thoughts on exactly why the Democrats lost the last election thats a topic for another thread.

@DemonTree

This… seems awfully conspiratorial.

It’s tangential to this discussion, but not conspiratorial.

It’s demonstrating how easily the algorithm can be gamed by dishonest actors.

@DemonTree

and they can as easily push people in a left-wing direction

Except the people in ultimate control of these algorithms are people like Elon Musk (who actively took part in the Trump administration and responsible for dismantling much of the Federal government) and Mark Zuckerberg. My Twitter feed went from relatively nice and relatively sedentary before Musk took over to mostly the same, punctuated occasionally by perfectly reasonable tweets posted by active white-supremacists.

It isn’t always outright overt. I’ve trained my “algorithm” to mostly keep that stuff away. But as aware as I am of what they are trying to do, I can’t shut it all down. And people that are less aware than me get it much worse.

@DemonTree

How did Biden’s administration crush the BLM movement? From what I’ve seen Trump’s treatment of protestors has been very different to Biden’s.

@President Biden at the State of the Union

We should all agree the answer is not to defund the police is to fund the police…Fund them. Fund them.

It was a message clearly crafted to undercut the “defund” and BLM movement that had already shifted their messaging.

Remember, this thread is about messaging. The police and the feds physically crushed the BLM protests. Then Biden ended it by literally calling them out.

@DemonTree

I didn’t believe Trump would be so bad, because the Dems, and the left generally, were so clearly treating the election as business as usual.

They treated it as “business as usual” because as I’ve said multiple times in this thread, the Democrats are fundamentally incapable of doing the job.

But if you didn’t believe that “Trump would be so bad” then that’s on you. They literally told you what they were planning on doing if they got back in power. As in, they wrote manifestos on the stuff and said, “these are our plans and this is what we are going to do.”

@DemonTree

No compromise on the identity politics

Nonsense. They went out of their way not to do anything that could be perceived as “woke.” (doesn’t “woke” sound so quaint now? Nobody is saying it anymore. Its amazing how powerful messaging and narratives can be.)

They absolutely compromised on “identity politics.” The Republicans launched a multi-million dollar anti-trans campaign, and the Democrat response was to cede bathrooms and sports.

@DemonTree

Maybe they didn’t believe how bad he could be either?

Its not that they didn’t believe it: It’s that they didn’t care. The people responsible for shaping the message: the pundits, the think-tanks, the consultants, the party-leadership, they are all gonna be just fine under a Trump presidency. The consequences for them are orders of magnitude different to what is happening to asylum seekers or trans people.

[Mijin]

On the economy thing, I still disagree with the framing that Harris et al were saying “everything is great”. On the contrary, every message was framed around “we know many are struggling now”. When your political opponents are trying to hammer a mesage that the American economy has cratered, I think it seems to concede the point.

What democrats should have said though is not easy to say. The primary problem was not having enough reach.

And note BTW that Trump still never says anything about people struggling, despite prices continuing to rise, sacking tens of thousands himself and moribund economic figures that might be about to get a whole lot worse.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Mijin

On the contrary, every message was framed around “we know many are struggling now”.

…more accurately, I’d say every message was framed around “we know many are struggling right now. BUT…” and then they’d proceed into the talking points about how the economy is doing just great.

It felt utterly insincere because it was highly stage-managed. It was a campaign that stuck to the script. Its like her “if somebody’s breaking into my house, they’re getting shot” moment. That wasn’t spontaneous. That something that was probably crafted in the backrooms by well paid consultants, targeting a very narrow demographic. It was a campaign full of moments like that: calculated to be popular with a very specific target group. To keep the donors happy.

@Mijin

And note BTW that Trump still never says anything about people struggling

Because faux empathy doesn’t buy you votes.

[Mijin]

@Banquet_Bear

…more accurately, I’d say every message was framed around “we know many are struggling right now. BUT…” and then they’d proceed into the talking points about how the economy is doing just great.

Disagree. I mean, we did this earlier in the thread, so I’m not sure if we want to re-debate this, but the framing of democrats just trying to say everything is great is false IMO. At most they tried to push back against false MAGA talking points.

@Banquet_Bear

Because faux empathy doesn’t buy you votes.

The point is, you were arguing that it is important to address the problems that people face. Trump doesn’t do that. Ergo, it’s not actually that important. Not in the new information space.

Also of course I am not sure what you want Dems to do. They talked about the everyday concerns of poor and middle-class americans. They put in place policies to help them and were proposing more for the next term. What do you want them to do?

[Banquet_Bear]

@Mijin

I mean, we did this earlier in the thread, so I’m not sure if we want to re-debate this, but the framing of democrats just trying to say everything is great is false IMO. At most they tried to push back against false MAGA talking points.

…this thread is about podcasts, media and messaging. It isn’t about what was said verbatim. Its about what they wanted people to hear and about what people did hear.

And it isn’t just about what people in the party were saying. Podcasts, media and messaging is an entire ecosystem that goes beyond the party. But the party sets the tone.

@Mijin

The point is, you were arguing that it is important to address the problems that people face.

And it is.

Trump doesn’t do that.

Of course he does.

The problem with the economy are the illegals. So we are going to deport them. He’s directly addressing the problems that people face. Not only does he have the solution, he’s actually doing it. It’s on TV every single day. I see viral tweets showing ICE agents hunting people down multiple times every single day. And they are loving it.

Ergo, it’s not actually that important.

It’s the most important thing in the world.

If you stand for trans rights: then loudly proclaim you stand for trans rights. Because it’s much easier to protect rights that currently exist than to get them back once they are gone.

@Mijin

Also of course I am not sure what you want Dems to do.

I’ve said it over and over again. The Dems are fundamentally incapable of stepping up to the task. They are up against an authoritarian government that have unleashed the brownshirts on the populace. And many of the Dems are ranting about the potential Mayor of New York, waving foreign flags in front of protestors, making performative filibusters and then announcing he would be selling a book about it.

I don’t want them to do anything. That isn’t why I’m posting here. I’m making observations from the other side of the planet. I think expecting the Democrats to turn this around is a mistake and almost an impossibility.

There are good people still in the party that are trying to turn it around. And maybe they will succeed.

But what we are seeing with Mamdani is illustrative of the larger problem both the Democrats AND America are facing. He is getting attacked not only by the Republicans in some very obviously racist attacks, but also by people in his own party that at the most extreme are only slightly less racist.

I think the Democrat machine is broken. Fundamentally corrupted and captured by donors, helplessly enthralled by the pundits and think-tanks and consultants that I think ultimately drive the messaging.

Ask yourself: if you were in Germany in 1936, what would you want the opposition parties to be doing?

Because that’s where I think we are right now. With the Democrats more likely to be complicit with the administration than actively fighting against it.

And I don’t think we can change that. I think even if the opposition party in 1936 did everything you asked of them they would still be crushed. But at least they would go down fighting.

So that’s where I’m at.

I want to go down fighting.

There are people trying to rally the Democrats. I hope they succeed.

But I think we need to prepare for at least a decade of this. Things are going to get a lot darker than they are now. And you need new leadership to show the way. So I have no advice for the establishment dems. They are going to do what they are going to do. My “advice” (not that anyone wants to hear it) is for Democrats that are disillusioned and want to start fighting back.

[Babale]

@Banquet_Bear

Ask yourself: if you were in Germany in 1936, what would you want the opposition parties to be doing?

Definitely NOT what the actual far leftists in Weimar Germany did: side with the Nazis against the Liberals with the slogan ‘After Hitler, Us’. Which is basically what the people who refused to vote for Kamala did.

[Whack-a-Mole]

@Banquet_Bear

But what we are seeing with Mamdani is illustrative of the larger problem both the Democrats AND America are facing. He is getting attacked not only by the Republicans in some very obviously racist attacks, but also by people in his own party that at the most extreme are only slightly less racist.

I think the Democrat machine is broken. Fundamentally corrupted and captured by donors, helplessly enthralled by the pundits and think-tanks and consultants that I think ultimately drive the messaging.

^ This.

Mamdani is a great example of how the democratic party is fundamentally broken. You said it all better than I would.

I am beginning to think dems will stay that way until the current, old guard leaves politics either by retiring or getting voted out of office to let a new age in. They clearly are not rreading the room correctly. That could take a while.

[filmore]

And this attitude is a problem as well:

Pelosi/Schumer have the perfect opportunity to develop the young talent to keep the Dems relevant, yet they seem to be actively blocking that from happening.

[Babale]

@filmore

And this attitude is a problem as well:

The attitude displayed by the person parodying them?

[Whack-a-Mole]

@filmore

Pelosi/Schumer have the perfect opportunity to develop the young talent to keep the Dems relevant, yet they seem to be actively blocking that from happening.

Pelosi has never been a fan of the younger politicians. IIRC Pelosi was actively hostile towards AOC and The Squad more generally.

[Mijin]

@Banquet_Bear

…this thread is about podcasts, media and messaging. It isn’t about what was said verbatim. Its about what they wanted people to hear and about what people did hear.

I agree fully with this motte.
Yes, lots of people were convinced that Democrats didn’t care about them and were smug about the economy etc. That’s largely thanks to conservative media having all the megaphones.

Your bailey however was talking about what Democrats were actually doing and saying.

@Banquet_Bear

The problem with the economy are the illegals. So we are going to deport them. He’s directly addressing the problems that people face.

If that’s what you call directly addressing the problems then anything any president does is addressing the problems, because Trump didn’t even claim that deporting illegals was going to make life easier for working americans.

@Banquet_Bear

It’s the most important thing in the world.

If you stand for trans rights: then loudly proclaim you stand for trans rights.

I agree. I’m struggling to understand why you are saying this in response to a point about the economy and vibecession.

@Banquet_Bear

I don’t want them to do anything. That isn’t why I’m posting here. I’m making observations from the other side of the planet. I think expecting the Democrats to turn this around is a mistake and almost an impossibility.

I’m not expecting them to turn it around too, and I think the Democrats are pretty feckless. I’m purely pushing back against what I see as false talking points.

I agree with you that it’s not impossible to turn the party round. When you look at what Trump has done to the Republican party, and frankly to American democracy, it’s pretty clear anything’s possible.

[Banquet_Bear]

@Mijin

Your bailey however was talking about what Democrats were actually doing and saying.

…and I stand by that.

Because here’s the thing. Its largely a matter of perspective. Both you and I could watch the very same speech and come away with different conclusions. That’s the thing about messaging. There is a degree of subjectivity to it.

For me its about the Talking Points. These are formulated in the backrooms, by the consultants, by party leadership, by the think-tanks, that politicians stick to almost religiously. Its what keeps them on message.

If you ever wonder why all the MAGA politicians seem to be singing off the same songbook its because they are. Here are some examples:

Riley Beggin

NRSC Memo on Dobbs

The Democrats do the same thing. They come into play especially when a politician gets cornered: they will default to the talking points like a robot malfunctioning. It was obvious during the campaign Democrats were told not to talk about trans issues at all. And when Harris was confronted about things like what was happening in the Middle East it was 1-sympathy, 2-release the hostages, 3-pivot to the economy.

And I think that, based on post-election interviews with consultants and advisors, and the things that Harris and co were saying and doing during the campaign, was that on the economy…“We know that it’s hard for some people. But the economy is doing great. And this is why: [bullet points]”

Thats all I’m really saying.

@Mijin

I’m struggling to understand why you are saying this in response to a point about the economy and vibecession.

The point was about “arguing that it is important to address the problems that people face.” That its “not actually that important.”

But it is.

@Mijin

If that’s what you call directly addressing the problems then anything any president does is addressing the problems, because Trump didn’t even claim that deporting illegals was going to make life easier for working americans.

You are confusing actually doing something to directly address the problem and messaging.

People hear what they want to hear. And when they hear Trump saying he’s gonna deport the illegals what they are hearing is “good because they were taking all of the jobs.”

No: deporting illegals isn’t going to fix the economy. But we are living in a post-truth world. And the truth doesn’t matter any more for millions of Americans.

@Mijin

When you look at what Trump has done to the Republican party, and frankly to American democracy, it’s pretty clear anything’s possible.

Today Democrats Eric Sallwell, Hakeem Jefferies, Kristen Gillibrand and Daniel Goldman all launched attacks on Mamdani on things he didn’t even say. The thing is certain factions of Democrats also get their own talking points, from what ever advisors or think-tanks or consultants they are aligned with. Its taken a few days for them to figure it out. But they’ve got their line of attack now.

I just can’t see them turning it around. This is who they are. Mamdani faces an uphill battle. He is going to be attacked from all sides and even if he wins those attacks will continue.

Whether or not the Democrats can turn it around depends on what happens next. I think the Democrats will run a “spoiler campaign” and back another candidate allowing Adams to come through and take it. And if they do: that will be the final nail in the coffin. It will show they care more about their donors than they do about the people of New York or Democracy.

And nothing will send a stronger message than that.

[Mijin]

@Banquet_Bear

@Mijin

Your bailey however was talking about what Democrats were actually doing and saying.

…and I stand by that.

Because here’s the thing. Its largely a matter of perspective. Both you and I could watch the very same speech and come away with different conclusions. That’s the thing about messaging. There is a degree of subjectivity to it.

This is again just bait and switch. Yes, the electorate’s perspective was that Democrats were elitist snobs who wanted to tout a great economy while the “truth” was that America was on its last legs*.
No, Democrats did not actually snobbishly tout the economy. A couple times they tried to push back on disinformation, but it was always couched in the “I know you’re struggling” stuff. If you have a good quote to say otherwise, let’s see it.

* I think it’s also key that people thought America was struggling. In most polling, people rated their own personal circumstances far better than the country’s. Because it’s easier to gaslight people about this nebulous thing of how “America” is doing than convince them they have fewer things when they have the same or more.
So even the post-hoc analysis that “Americans were struggling but felt they were not being listened to” is misleading (not by you; I mean conservative media and the milquetoast center-left)

[Banquet_Bear]

@Mijin

This is again just bait and switch.

…nah.

@Mijin

Yes, the electorate’s perspective was that Democrats were elitist snobs who wanted to tout a great economy while the “truth” was that America was on its last legs*.

This is “what some people happened to think as a result of how things were reframed by the alt-right ecosystem.”

But that isn’t what I was talking about. I’m talking specifically about the Democrat messaging, which wasn’t to “snobbishly tout the economy” but to “tout the economy.”

@Mijin

If you have a good quote to say otherwise, let’s see it.

I haven’t argued they said otherwise. I actually said that it was couched in the “I know you’re struggling” stuff, but that’s how talking points work.

[Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor]

A big part of this is that bade economic news, for the Poor & Working classes, hasn’t gone away since the 1970s.
Stagnant wages.
And bad news with crime bombarded the American consciousness continually.
And Gun Control themes, I’m sad to say, reinforced this.