I got your point, but I don’t agree with it. I’d suggest that most people, with or without concious intent do use the phrase in a racist manner. I’ve never heard the term “white trash” used to refer to a hispanic or Asian or black person. If it was really as free of racist overtones as you and Tom suggest, wouldn’t we see it regularly applied to a wider variety of people?
The fact that “white trash” isn’t as racist as “nigger” doesn’t mean it’s not racist. I’d certainly concede that “nigger” is worse, but the test on the SDMB is “hate speech” not “bad enough hate speech”. And if it is “bad enough hate speech”, I’d like clarification as to where “jew you down”, “mighty white of you”, “raghead”, etc fall.
One of the big differences between “white trash” and the other terms is that mostly white people use it. This has probably been mentioned, and I didn’t comb through all the posts.
Just because something mentions race it is not automatically racist. Anyway, we have plenty of other insulting terms for everybody else. Please allow us to keep the *one lousy insulting term * we only use on ourselves. Yeesh! :smack:
“Lousy.” As in “infested with lice.” The only people infested with lice these days are poor people, so there I go getting all classist again. :rolleyes:
At any rate, while I appreciate the distinction you’re drawing here in an effort to erase the distinction I’m drawing, I don’t think my distinction is meaningless. That is, while nobody here is going to interpret “faggot” or “kike” or similar ugliness as a direct threat of violence rationally, I do think that these words, by dint of their attachment to violence in “meatspace” (love the term!), carry a far harsher emotional weight.
Recognizing the weakness of analogies, I’ll make one anyway. Calling someone “white trash” is like saying, “Yo momma so fat, when she lays around the house, she really lays around the house!” Calling someone “kike” is like saying, “Your momma died of cancer, and I’m glad of it!” It’s referencing a real-world tragedy and delighting in the tragedy.
I’m not so sure of that; it depends on context. If you, a stranger, were to call me white trash because of my economic circumstances I’d be offended. That is one of the unacceptable usages. If you, a stranger or a friend, were to call me white trash because I had indulged in some Springeresque activity I’m circumspect enough to agree. If you were to call me it and, when asked to explain, said it was because I had done something that a black person would do and it was only my whiteness that kept me above the level of a black person I’d think you were a racist AND stuck in the 19th century.
Pondering the OED’s original citation, as a phrase used by slaves to describe whites doing the same work, I’m thinking they meant it as in, “We’re doing this lousy job because we’re slaves and the overseer will whip us if we don’t. They’re doing it because they can’t find better jobs. What losers!”
While the context has changed, “What losers!” is still it’s meaning.
The point is clearly controversial. I have simply proferred my take on the matter (and would probably have wandered off to read other threads had not I first been accused of claiming it was not offensive and then had my explanation denied without refutation.
I have not explicitly looked to find non-whites being described as “white trash.” (Several of the anecdotes told through the years may have referred to people who were not white, but I have not grilled the speakers or posters on the point.)
As to being de facto racist, while I am sure that there are some people who continue to use it in a racist way, today, (I have only argued that a large number, possibly a majority, have drifted from that position, not that is is never racist), I would need to know the de facto situation of the term “steam shovel” to know how to answer that. Is it de facto anachronistic? Obtuse? Stupid? “Merely” ignorant? Or is it an unconsidered construction that can be arbitrarily classified in any or all of those ways?
(In its absolute construction, “white trash” is not, in and of itself, racist, because it could be merely descriptive and no one is prevented from saying “black trash,” “red trash,” “brown trash,” “yellow trash,” or “chartreuse trash.” Its racism comes from the meanings that were associated with it based on the racial and class structures of the society in which it originated. So when those racial and class structures are diminished (or, more likely, in this case, invisible to a particular speaker), we then have to impose those racial and class structures on both the phrase and the speaker in order to bring it back to a racist epithet.)
As an aside, I swiped “meatspace” from someone else–maybe Rudy Rucker or Bruce Sterling, perhaps? But I agree-it’s a great phrase! (Although very bio-centrist! What of our silicon bretheren? What of their feelings? )
I agree completely about the degree of emotional weight and your analogy is a good one. On the other hand, I’m mostly concerned here with the SDMB rules, as opposed to the real-world issues, and the rules only reference ‘hate speech’.
Since there are degrees of emotional weight, if the hate speech rule stands, where is the line drawn? I don’t need a fine line, but something a little firmer than (to quote some Supreme or other) “I know it when I see it”. Certainly the emotional weight for “white trash” is negligible for most people compared to “kike” or “nigger” or “raghead”, but (to reuse these examples) what about the middle-ground examples: “jew you down” or “redskin” or “mighty white of you” or “slant” or “beaner”?
If the hate speech rule stands, perhaps some clarifcation on where the line is drawn would be advised: Veb noted in an earlier post, people have griped about “repugnican” and “dumbocrat”-type comments. Wouldn’t some of the griping be aleviated if that line were somewhat clearer? (Note-I’m not asking for a “every jot and tittle” level rule–the finer the rule is drawn, the easier it’ll be to skirt it and find loopholes) but a bit of clarifiction (“race=NO!”, “religion=No!”, "political party=“Fair game”.) might be helpful.
That is because you know that the term really doesn’t apply to you.
Privileged whites use it as a joke precisely because they know it doesn’t apply to them.
Imagine if you flunked a test and your friend said “Dude, are you black?” And you responded “Ha! Yeah, I guess I am. Hehehe.”
It’s a joke to you because you know it doesn’t apply.
You didn’t get tracked into a miserable vocational track in a bad school. You didn’t have to drop out of school to work and help support your family. You don’t have missing teeth because your family never had insurance. In short, you aren’t part of the group the term refers to, so of course you aren’t insulted by it, any more than you would be insulted to be called “black.”
I find it hard to believe that a known white poster (especially an unpopular one) calling a known black poster (especially a popular one) “black trash” would not be viewed as a racial epithet. Sorry, but I’ll believe that when I see it.
I agree. It’s an extremely loaded term. Think about it…who in their right mind would think it would be OK to say that to someone? It’s the “trash” that’s the real dig…you can substitute any color, and it will still be insulting. Maybe I’m just getting old. (looking over on the panel for a geezer smilie)
So? No one has made any claim that that would ever happen.
Even a popular white poster who called an unpopular black poster “black trash” would be called to account for that statement.
There is not an equivalency (except for those who believe words have no context or believe that all words exist only in deconstructionist isolation from reality) between a white using the phrase “black trash” toward a black person and a white person directing the phrase “white trash” toward another white person. The latter may be a racist epithet or it may be a rote phrase. Since there is no common expression “black trash,” it is not possible for “black trash” to ever be a rote phrase.
Tomndebb, you’ve convinced me that white trash is no longer a racist term. What you have posted makes sense to me. You fought my ignorance and won. (Offer non-transferable)
You make an excellent point. Having my opinioned swayed twice in one thread is very unsettling.
I find the term white trash insulting. The term is used against people that I love. Any word that is used to hurt other people intentionally is offensive to me.
