This old man, he played one,
He played knick-knack on my thumb;
Knick-knack paddywhack,
Give a dog a bone,
This old man came rolling home.
Paddywhack is a slang term for Irishman. I see no evidence that it is derogatory, and have provided a cite that suggests otherwise. Paddywagon refers to the drivers, not the [drunken, brawling] inhabitants.** Lute ** provided a cite that gives two meanings for paddy; one joking, and one cotemptuous. I have a cite from Webster’s Third International Unabridged that calls it a term of affection. “Contempt” is not eqivalent to “dehumanizing, degrading and racist,” even if one were to grant that “Irish” is a race.
I have found no cite that agrees with **Lute’s ** definition for bloodsucker, or refutes it for that matter. I will do some more research tomorrow, unless you or he can provide me one sooner.
White trash is most definitely hate speech.
Nuh uh.
Daniel
Is NOT hate speech. Unless it is said by some other ethnic group who uses it like: “Let us all gather our guns and kill the white trash!”
We all seem to forget that speech is not a word, it is a collection of words usually in the form of sentences and paragraphs. I call my sister white trash all the time, I dont hate her, shes just white trash…ala Mrs. Spears.
I dont believe there is any such thing as hate speech by itself, it is all in context and who is doing the talking.
In 1913, “dehumanizing” and “racist” didn’t exist but “degrading” did.
1913 definition for “contempt”: The act of contemning or despising; the feeling with which one regards that which is esteement mean, vile, or worthless; disdain; scorn.
1913 definition for “degrading”: Dishonoring; disgracing the character; as degrading obsequiousness.
Note that the mobster usage only dates to 1952. I already mentioned that it had been pertaining to Jews before that but I have no idea why it wouldn’t be listed.
On “bloodsucker”:
Granted, the earliest known use of “bloodsucker” is the 14th Century but I’m sure you can see how it got applied to those who are Jewish.
Two questions for Contrapuntal: why is it that you agreed that Paddy is racist until presented with the idea that it becomes non-racist when made into compound words? Because it clashes with your view that “white trash” is hate speech?
All you have to do is admit that you just might be wrong and we can put this thing to bed.
My point on the capo cite is that the mobster use evolved from the earlier italian word for that thing that guitar players put on the fretboard. You seemed to be saying that the mobster use evolved from the word used to describe the Jews in the concentration camps, and that it evolved (6 years later) into a different meaning altogether. The original meaning of the word is the musical one.
I still do not see evidence that the first use of bloodsucker, in the 14th Century, was referring to Jews, and not leeches, for example.
I submit, with respect to your cite for ‘paddy,’ that if a word can be used either jocularly or contemptuously, it is unreasonable to assign the most extreme definition for ‘contempt.’ It was a nickname, for goodness’ sake. Are you suggesting that ‘paddy’ was a rallying cry for bigotry against the Irish?
Here is a cite for dehumanize (1818 attestation) and degrade (1325 attestation). It appears that both words existed in 1913.
Not at all. I’m saying that the mobster usage superceded the Jewish usage.
In 1946. WWII came before that, you know.
Webster had no knowledge of such words in 1913 or 1828.
I simply agreed because it did not matter. I am looking for a phrase that was racist in origin but not today. The assertion was that paddy is racist today as well as in origin, so it fails the test. Either way my point was made. In point of fact, it can only be racist if ‘Irish’ is defined as a race.
Missed one.
As has been stated many times in this thread, it all depends on who is saying it and in what manner.
The root may be racist without the compound word being so, which flies in the face of your entire premise. Can’t have that now, can you?
Good luck on your quest, Señor Quixote.
And my Webster (International, Unabridged) has no meaning for ‘paddy’ other than a familiar term of affection. Shall we play dueling dictionaries?
There is nothing in your cite to suggest that ‘capo’ of the death camps is A) Italian or B) degrading, dehumanizing, and racist. You would also need to show that somehow a word referring to Jews in concentration camps came to mean ‘head’ in Italian. The capo is at the head of the guitar (the top of the neck); a capo is a crime boss (the head of the family.)
On preview,
The assertion was that ‘paddywagon’ was racist because it referred to the [drunken, brawling] inhabitants. It refers to the drivers, the police, instead.
‘Paddy’ can only be racist if ‘Irish’ is a race.
But ‘white trash’ somehow falls outside this allowance?
Miriam-Webster. Race.
2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics <the English race>
I’m sorry, what now? Irish… race.
** Contrapuntal** You are aware that there was a time when the Irish were considered a separate and LOWER race, right?
Other compound words do. Why wouldn’t “white trash”?
Oh, I forgot–because Señor Quixote says so.
Excuse me, but that is not a dictionary.
Not dueling at all. Look there. W2. English-Irish race.
Paddywagon is racist because of ‘paddy’. It’s a slur, if it refers to the cops or the contents. General Not Our Kind Dear reference to it.
Oooh. And we havn’t even considered the Dutch. Dutch Wife. Dutch Treat…
http://www.word-detective.com/back-h.html