scotth,
then the drug of choice ,by your chart, is LSD? and where is cocaine on your chart?
ooops, how did I forget coke, I’ll cover it now and then elaberate on LSD in a second.
coke is not physically addictive but it is moderately phsychologically addictive, in itself, does not cause much in the way of health problems. Generally health problems that arise from it stem from someone foregoing everything else (like food) for it. Moderate risk of OD, the biggest risk is that it may cause sudden death because of an existing cardio weakness (even one you didn’t know you had). It would not be high on my recommended list, to be honest.
And on LSD, to be honest, LSD does have its “dangers”, but not ones that show up on that kind of chart. Overall, though it is incredibly safe physically. Far safer than asprin for instance. Its danger stems from not treating it with respect. It is a VERY powerful substance. I would never deny that. Most gun dangers stem from treating them as toys also, and this should not be treated like a toy. But, there is not a single documented case of someone dying from a LSD overdose… even when it was deliberately tried (ie tried to commit suicide with it). However, for a person that is properly educated/advised/supervised, and is emotionally mature, it is very safe.
First of all, I think it’s really cute how the person in my scenario has suddenly become dehydrated, changing the whole scenario to a “die this way” or “die that way” decision. The classic “what if” reaction to the core point.
The bottom line is that it is stupid to start doing drugs. When a person starts taking drugs to escape reality, they are making a poor decision and should know better. To say that a person taking drugs is smarter than someone posting what I posted is a flame and makes no sense. To simplify my earlier scenario, you give someone a choice to live or die and they choose to die then you cannot be blamed for their choice.
I realize that there is a sub-culture in America that thinks the government is wrong by making drugs illegal, and I see the point in the vegetarian analogy. However, bear in mind that I don’t think the government should poison drugs, because it would force people to obey the laws (except for the really stupid ones who end up dying because of their stubbornness). What I was trying to say is that it would probably work pretty well if they did poison drugs, and it wouldn’t make the government into murderers, just tyrants. So it would be immoral, but for a different reason than what I’ve been seeing here.
Now, I know that some people are already addicted to drugs, but could someone please give me a logical reason for someone to start taking drugs? Even people who are stressed or are facing impossible problems, have enough basic knowledge to realize that drugs will simply compound the problem, or at least be a cheap attempt to escape, so that does not qualify as a locigal reason either. So, I reserve the right to say that it is stupid and careless to develop the habit of taking drugs, and they won’t get any sympathy from me for something they brought on themselves, until the point when they want to get out of that lifestyle.
Now if everyone obeyed the laws allt he time, we’d all be much safer and free from many tragedies. The world would be a much better place, but that requires that everyone chooses to happily obey the laws, which isn’t going to happen. The problem is apllying enough force to keep crime at a minimum, while still giving people the full range to do as they wish. But just like when someone cuts you off at 90 mph without the use of a signal light, I reserve the right to utter “you dumbass” whenever someone does something dangerous and stupid, or utterly pointless (like many drugs). No, I won’t kill them (of course), but when they kill themselves out of their own stupid acts, I won’t whine about it, I’ll let them be an example and a reminder of why we shouldn’t do what they did.
I’m very confused here. Why would anyone ever want to drink a beer at a baseball game, or have a glass of red wine with a fine meal, or smoke a joint and watch sunset? You seem to imply that any substance that changes your mental state is an effort to escape reality.
Many people disagree with your interpretation, and from a risk standpoint, others have shown the dangers from alcohol vs pot, for example. And let’s not even get to caffine.
I think most people would agree that abuse of any drug is a bad thing, but many people enjoy recreational use of lots of drugs and are able to function in society and be productive. When did this become a live or die choice?
I guess there is only one reason to take a drug (alcohol and caffiene are definitely in this) is to escape reality? That is a new on one me.
You did not read what I said there. I said everyone that I (as in me personally) know whom use drugs are smarter than anyone who would postulate the position you took in your post. You seem to equate people how use drugs as indistinguishable from idiots, slackers, etc… I am here to tell, you would probably not believe the number of truly intelligent and well educated people who ocasionally use drugs. People who would never pop off a completely naive and ignorant idea like the one presented in a public forum.
After reading through Dale’s previous posts, I somewhat expected a response like this, and knew I was wasting my time. Typical.
I guess he’s going to keep asking this until he gets an answer he likes.
There are those who take drugs, and there are those who abuse drugs. Same for alcohol, food, sex, etc. Humans aren’t perfect.
OK Dale. Let’s see if you can address why people would choose to start using drugs.
Do you drink alcohol ever? How bout coffee?
Why did ya start?
Nope, no alcohol, or other drug. It seems you are asking the wrong person. I doubt this response will be believed, but that’s the way it is. Yes, I have tried alcohol and found it quite unpleasant (tastes bad, unsettling in stomach), but never more than a single small drink.
That brings me back to the original question, why would someone start? Even if the altered state is minimal, such as drowsiness or hyperactivity I don’t see the point, when it could easily be avoided.
I have pondered whether or not I should post a thread on this theme, but haven’t because I am quite flammable. Anyway, some people “socially” drink, others drink to get drunk. Now, I can’t begin to see why someone actually wants to be drunk, but why do people drink (alcohol) socially? It tastes bad.
teemings: It’s an acquired taste.
DTB: So is urine, but you don’t see me running out to “acquire” that taste.
teemings: Some people just naturally like the taste/It doesn’t all taste bad/Haven’t you ever tried a [name of drink], they are great.
DTB: Okay, I can accept that, but why does it have to contain alcohol? Is this some macho thing?
Cavemen didn’t need drugs of any kind to survive (yes, I’m aware that early man used pot), so why can’t people just go for the all-natural highs, like surfboarding, skydiving and various other things from Mountain Dew commercials (caffeine free, of course). Chemical-free living just seems more free altogether, sorry if that makes me an asshole. Wouldn’t it be ideal for a person to be as chemical-independent as possible? What’s wrong with me striving for that? Maybe I should start a basic thread “Non-medicinal drugs, what’s the point?”
No, that doesn’t make you an asshole. If that’s how you choose to live your life, great, more power to ya.
What would make you an asshole, IMO, would be if you tried to force everyone else to live your way. Or if you went around implying that your choice makes you better than others who may enjoy a good buzz every now and again.
People should have the right to choose for themselves in what ways they will or will not alter their own consciousness.
There are two separate debates here: One, should people make the decision to use drugs, and two, should drugs be illegal?
Actually, I’m not that far from Dale the Bold’s position on a purely personal level. I’m just about a tee-totaler. I almost never drink. I have no moral objections to drugs, nor do I think alcohol is some great big bogeyman and one drop of Demon Rum will inevitably put you on the path to perdition. But I don’t really like the taste of alcohol; the only drinks I really like are sissy mixed drinks. I don’t really find the effects of alcohol all that compelling either. If I drink, then pretty soon, I get sleepy. That’s all. I don’t get witty and debonair; I don’t wear a lampshade on my head; I don’t pick fights with large guys with tattoos; I don’t wake up the next morning in bed with strange women whose names I can’t recall. I just get drowsy and nod off. So, I could cultivate a taste for more “sophisticated” drinks, but then all they would do is make me sleepy. I could stick to sissified alcoholic drinks I actually like, but there are plenty of non-alcoholic beverages that don’t make me sleepy (although they may well rot my teeth or give me diabetes or something). If I really worked at it, I could maybe learn to appreciate the taste of beer or wine or single-malt Scotch or whatever, and “learn to drink”, i.e., learn how to “lose my inhibitions” and get all witty and stuff without just nodding off. IIRC, studies have shown that much of the effect of many intoxicants is learned–there’s an underlying physiological effect, but a lot of it is also social and psychological exptectations of how one should act when drunk, high, stoned, etc. But at any rate, I’ve never bothered to learn these things.
However, just because I haven’t personally learned to appreciate the stuff, I don’t think the government should send men with guns to prevent other people from doing so. Is the use of intoxicants ever really necessary? Generally speaking, no. Then again, I don’t have to drink sugary iced tea and colas–I could drink water, and I’m sure it would be better for me. There are lots and lots of things any of us do that we probably shouldn’t. Of course if I’m trying to operate heavy machinery in a public place under the influence of intoxicating drugs or if I’m assaulting people, that’s different. Otherwise, I really don’t see why it should be a matter for criminal law.
Well, two pretty good posts covering pretty much what I wanted to cover. Thanks for saving me the time.
A few more things.
Actually, I am not all that crazy about alcohol. I do truly love a good red wine. Oh, that is hard to beat to me as far as a wonderful thing to have with a nice steak for instance. This is purely a taste issue. Actually, I could do without the alcohol in this instance, so I could have more.
There are things that are much better intoxicants. I would probably pick LSD as being the easiest to make case. What is interesting, it is one of the villified ones… For the life of me, I can’t understand that one.
On some of the other joys in life you suggested, I do most of them:
Skydive, Sailplanes, bungee, snow ski, water ski, wake board, jet ski, long distance running, car/motorcycle racing, and most important of all… learning.
But, intoxication is just another experience to me.
I don’t know how I missed making this point the first time around…you’re ragging on people who choose to use chemicals for recreation, and your list of suggested alternatives to this activity includes jumping out of airplanes?!?
The use of chemicals for recreation is a personal choice. This choice involves responsibility. Does everyone understand what responsibility is? If you dont then please go here. It is up to you to make sure you dont crash your car into a wall, correct? It is also up to you to make sure you study for your spanish class, correct? If you crash into the wall, then you risk getting injured. If you dont study for spanish class, you risk failing the class. These examples are called responsibility.
We are responsible for many, many things in our lives. Most of these things are of a personal nature. Such as eating food and earning money. However, people think they can handle others responsibilities. These people may be trying to help society, but these decisions must ultimately be made by the individual.
Drugs are a perfect example of other people trying to shoulder others responsibility. Drugs are an activity that only directly effect the individual. Thus, drug use should be a personal choice made on a personal level.
Your use of Marijuana is a choice you have to make. Why should someone else make that decision for you?
And don’t forget, stuff that isn’t usually classified as “drugs” can have an effect on your mood.
Dale, I don’t use drugs, don’t drink, and avoid caffeine. I also don’t parachute, don’t go bungee jumping, don’t sky-dive, don’t ride motorcycles, don’t swim with sharks, and avoid active volcanos. For me, the enjoyment I would get from these activities is not worth the risks involved. I’m just not a thrill-seeker.
There is a place in France where people go to parachute. Many of my co-workers have been there. I’ve been told by these co-workers that once a year, someone dies in a parachuting accident. They’ve seen people die in parachuting accidents. When they tell me about it, I wonder what logical reason the victim had to take up parachuting as a hobby. Couldn’t she just read a nice book or watch sit-coms or post to a message board in the safety of her home, like I do? Is the thrill of parachuting really that great? My co-workers assure me that it is, so I believe that it is - for them. I don’t think of them as suicidal maniacs. I feel sorry for the victim of a parachuting accident, without understanding what led her to it.
A person who indulges in dangerous activities for pleasure is not necessarily suicidal, any more than a gambler wants to end up homeless.
Pennylane,
this allowing people to do what they want to themselves if fine if it doesnt affect innocent bystanders.
If the parachutist were over your house and only 1 died every year by landing in your neighorhood and maybe falling on someone then I bet your attitude was changed. we dont live on remote islands. every drunk or high person operating a car or every addict envolved in crime to support his habit or using the family’s rent money on drugs does affect innocent bystanders. thats why the govt has the duty to try to do whats best for the public.
You love to get high and drive fast with the wind in your hair. its a great escape and it makes life bearable. do you have the right to do that?
What about the 'plane that just crashed in Queens? Should air travel be illegal because of that? People on the ground are being put at risk. You can get wherever you want by a combination of sea/land travel.
Yes, and those things are against the law, as they should be. But recreational drug use within the user’s home does not harm anyone.
Anyway, I am not trying to argue for legalisation of drugs. I am arguing with Dale’s assumption that those who risk their lives for what appears to us to be an illogical reason are not necessarily suicidal. This is what my parachute example was supposed to illustrate. I was not trying to say, “parachutes are all right, so why not drugs”.
Yes, and lying to the public, along with contributing to the deaths of some members of the public who never harmed anyone in their lives - is this what’s best for the public?
Considering that it’s illegal and no-one is saying that it shouldn’t be - no I don’t have the right to do that.
Absolutely not JustinH… I would not argue that for one second… not even remotely. I think our drunk driving laws are WAY to lax. I would support very draconian laws on that.
This may strike you as very odd from the posts I have made so far… But, here is a draconian policy I would support.
First offense dui - 1 year jail… period, as long as it was just dui and not an injury accident.
first offense dui with an injury accident - treat all the injuries/deaths as deliberate and premeditated and triple the ususual penalties.
Second offense - Kill 'em.
Maybe I am a little drastic on second offense, but if that ever came up as proposed law, I would support… though, I know it won’t.
Nobody has the right to wrecklessly endanger anothers life or property this way. If you are going “out” to drink… get a ride, or don’t leave til you are sober.
IIRC, the average driver faces more risks from drivers who fall asleep than from drunk drivers (I’ll try to find a cite).
Again with the escape thing. Should any escape be illegal? I find computer games to be a great escape and it is as easy for me to lose track of time playing a good game as it is for me to lose track of time when I get stoned. Books are also in that same category.
::kabbes racks his brains and tries to think amongst all his friends, all of whom are in professional jobs, of one who has never taken any illegal drug…::
Ah yes! Timbo. He never fancied it. Hmm. One out of many though. And these are the people in very responsible professional positions in society. Oooh… be very scared. Or grow up and realise that experiences can be enjoyable without being good for you. And wanting to have an enjoyable experience doesn’t make you an idiot, nor does it make you a loser.
Ironically enough, drugs being illegal can actually make it more difficult to legislate against things like driving whilst high. Because if being high is illegal, why do you need a law to say that driving whilst high is illegal? Unnecessary!
scotth - on the draconian DUI laws: that’s all very well in theory but in practice you frequently get drivers who don’t realise that they would fail a DUI test. They may have, for example, been out drinking the night before and still have enough residual alcohol in their bloodstream to cause a failure. Execution for failing a DUI test would then be just a tad harsh, wouldn’t you say?
pan