I was dealt a pocket pair of 9s 9h. I raise it a little to weed out the dead wood. 1 opponent remains, and he raises it up. I re-raise. $400 in the pot. I’m called out. Flop comes down and I get nothing, maybe a possible straight at best. Turn card was 5d and gives me nothing extra. Check. My opponent raised. I called. I conviced myself he has made 3 of a kind, and start to sweat. The river comes down 5s and I make 2 pair. He had ah kd. Boom! Sweet!
Now, for me, 2 pair is a sweet hand to make. I’ve made 4 of a kind maybe twice. I’ve only been playing poker on and off for maybe 3 years online, and I still consider myself very much a newbie. I’ve never made a straight flush, and can only dream of making a royal flush.
So, what advice would you give to a newbie poker player, and what is the most you’ve had in the pot, and whats the best hand you have made that had you sweating until the turn or river?
Your opponent seems to have fallen into the trap of assuming that AK (whilst good pre-flop) is still winning after the flop - when it’s gone down in value.
As for you having ‘a sweet two pairs’ when the board pairs - your opponent has the pair of 5s too.
If he had a J (or a pair higher than 9s), he would also have two pairs and be beating you.
For a serious poker player I have a lousy memory, but there are a few hands that have stayed with me. One of my favorites, from a few years ago:
$2/$4 NL Hold’em on PartyPoker (before they pulled out of the U.S. market), 10-handed. These tables played rather conservatively.
I’ve got As 8s in the SB. Five limpers (very unusual), I complete, BB checks, seven players to the flop.
Flop (pot = $28): Ts 6s 2s
Flopped the nuts, and with so many players in the pot the only thing to be done is to bet it. I bet $25, a solid regular calls from two or three seats off the BB, everyone else folds.
Turn (pot = $78): Td
A terrible card for me. When the solid regular called the flop (with several players left to act behind him and a monochrome flop), that meant he had had either a set or a smaller flush the vast majority of the time. If he had a flush, the board’s pairing is a big scare card for both of us and is going to severely limit the amount of money I can win on the hand. If he had a set, he just made a full house and I’m now drawing dead. Since he would have been more likely to limp in preflop with a small pocket pair than two suited cards, I think he has a full house.
I check, he bets $60, I call. I think I’m drawing dead, but there’s still a real chance I’m good, and throwing away an A-high flush just because the board pairs and my opponent says peep feels much too weak-tight. I intend to fold to any big bet on the river (i.e. anything meaningfully over half the pot).
River (pot=$198): Tc
I push for about $310 (opponent has me covered). Rationale: if he has a flush, I’m not winning another nickel from him with three 10s on the board. He wouldn’t have called the flop with just top pair, so he’s very unlikely to have the quads. Most importantly, his most likely holdings (66 and 22) have just been completely counterfeited; all he can beat is a stone cold bluff.
He grumbled that his sixes-full was trash and folded. I delighted in hitting the “Show Cards” button. Anyway, I think it’s interesting because my play is schizophrenic: in order for the river to make any sense I need to have called on the turn believing that I was drawing dead, while if my play on the turn made sense I should be checking the river and hoping to pick off a bluff. In the long run, this kind approach is very expensive, but I’m still a fan of the way I played here.
I can tell you the best hand I ever had, is also the best hand I had that still had me sweating… which is to say I had the ass end of a straight flush.
I had 5d6d on the big blind… no raisers… so I check my moderate, likely to fold it anyway hand. Flop is 7d 9d js “Hmm, 8 of diamonds and I’ll be in good shape…” i say to myself slightly bemused. But I don’t expect it to fall. However, with a flush and inside straight draw, I think… What the hell, lets see who is serious here and throw out a half the pot size bet. I get a couple of callers and on fourth street, the ever so beautiful 8d.
So, now I"m thinking to myself… if the diamonds were not in the equation- and I had 5/6 with 789 on the board… I’d be thinking to myself I’m about to lose to 10J or 610 or god knows what. With the diamonds in the equation, however, I feel fairly confident that one of those other two suckers has to have hit either a flush or a high inside straight (The J was on the board… so if one stayed with a 10 I was golden). But in the back of my mind- because my luck runs this way sometimes- I knew that the 10d jd were still out there. And I convinced myself that one of those guys probably had it.
Still, I mean- it’s a straight flush, right? You gotta play it. If I lose, I can spin great yarns moaning about how I lost with a straight flush. But most likely, if anybody bites, I’ve got a good size fish. So, I throw out a good size bet, and sure enough manage to catch one of the remaining players who goes all in. Not only do I know I have to call, I’m absolutely dreading what he has got. He turns over… an Ace High Flush. <Whew> 5th card was a total miss. But damn, having a straight flush shouldn’t be so stressful.
He bet roughly 75% of the pot, you knew you were beat (and you were), and you just called? Were I him, I would have been convinced that there was no way you were holding anything but a flush, likely the nuts, and just having trouble giving it up. The only other option that makes sense is if you had pocket tens, but were slow playing with only the call or pocket twos and were ascared. But when that third ten shows, I’d know those hands were gone.
Which makes his lay down to your river bet (gutsy, strong bet by the way, I like it), an incredibly stupid play. He must have thought you had a higher, but not too high to make a preflop raise, pair. But his comment that “sixes-full was trash” shows he’s probably not a genius (but we knew what he meant).
I’m a big fan of the huge river bet, and the outcome. Not many players I’ve seen have the guts to throw 150% of the pot (or 300+ dollars) into a stone bluff on the river.
My story
I don’t know what it is about me, but I generally only remember the hands I get beaten down.
$6-12 limit hold 'em at Harrah’s New Orleans. I get pocket tens under the gun, so make a raise pre-flop, and get two callers. Much to my enjoyment, the flop comes
10-8-8 (I honestly don’t remember the suits, but it was a rainbow, with no flush possibilities unless they get a runner/runner).
I decide to slow play till the turn and the bets go up, so I check. P2 bets, P3 calls, I just call.
7
I continue with the slow play and check. P2 bets, P3, making me happy, raises. I re-raise. P2 realizes what is going on, and folds, P3 re-raises, and we cap the pot. Flopping the top full boat, I’m trying to get all my money in, and I put P3 on AA, KK, or maybe QQ
K
I bet, get a raise. At this point, I’m terrified he’s hit to his KK, and fucked me on the river by getting a higher pair. But in for a penny, so I reraise, he does too, and we cap the pot.
I start to announce my hand, the guy (who was a regular there), says "don’t bother, you can’t beat me), and flips over a pair of eights.
That one left a mark. Luckily the table was pretty lively and I almost made back my losses, but ouch, that was the first real whuppin’ I took live at a table.
When I played Party Poker, I would often play in the bad beat jackpot rooms. Their breakdown of the jackpot was utter garbage and the extra pull for it was questionable, but the flood of dumb, bad players usually made up for it. One day I was on and noticed that the Bad Beat Jackpot was ‘only’ $25,000, rather than the $100k-$400k it often sat at, so I skipped it and played the regular rooms.
I’m dealt pocket jacks and the flop is J-K-x. I bet and raise as does one opponent. I figure I’m probably screwed if he’s raising like he did preflop, but it’s hard to let go of a set, especially in fixed limit. My day is made when the turn gives me my 4th jack. I go in all guns firing as does he again. Finally, the last card is a king. We both cap the pot and before he makes his final bet, he apologizes and shows his quad kings over my quad jacks. What hurt more than losing that pot (about $50 on my end) was the fact that I’d have picked up about $6000 in the bad beat jackpot if I wasn’t so picky about the jackpot level.
Heads-up in the big blind, I have 4c-8c, the other guy calls.
The flop is 5c-6c-7c. I check. He goes all-in.
I call.
I don’t know what the hell he was thinking; he only had a flush draw. (To the 10, if memory serves.)
I wish it had been more than a .10 tournament. I can turn a profit at that level, but any time I’ve played for higher stakes, especially in person, I’ve been chewed up and spit out.
Playing in a $70 poker hold’m tournament in a casino just a couple weeks ago. 82 players and I am at the final table. 8 players remaining. It is getting late in the tourney and the blinds/antes are high. The shorter stacks are going all in preflop if they have a hand. I am the button and the “under the gun” player goes all in, and the shortest stack, to my right calls. Everyone else folds.
UTG player reveals K-Q of hearts and the short stack reveals A-10 unsuited. Flop is A-J-10 of hearts. UTG player flops a Royal Flush. Short stack is drawing dead with Aces over Tens. Turn and River is 10-A. The short stack ends up making ACES full.
FTR, I make it to the final 5 as the short stack and double up on Ace-6 against pocket 5. All of us have about the same amount of chips so we split the purse equally rather than playing it out. The blinds are getting large and real poker was just not feasible with the blinds/antes getting so high. Anytime anyone got a hand, it is was an all in bet. Splitting 5 ways was the equivalent was just a shade under 2nd place money so it worked out well for everyone. Plus I get to say that I won a poker tournament.
The other day, in a 1-2 nl game, I had K5d on the small blind. No pre-flop raise, I call.
Board flops 3 diamonds. Cannot remember exactly what they were, but no A or face card. I’m first to act, and I check.
The turn is another diamond - again not the ace or a flush. I bet $15. One call, the button on my right.
The river is non-diamond junk that doesn’t pair the board. I bet $20, and the button raised me $30. I call, and of course he has the Ad.
Where did I go wrong? Should I have bet on the flop (the button claimed that he would have called any bet on the flop)? Should I have not called the raise? Or was this just one of those hands were I was screwed from the get-go?
Another hand from the same session (I ended the night up, but these two hands changed a very good session into a decent session).
I had K9 off on the big blind. No pre-flop raises, and I check. Flop comes KJ2 rainbow. I bet $10. 1 call, four folds.
Turn is an ace. I check, the other play bets $10. I think about it, decide he doesn’t have an Ace, decide my 9-kicker is at least decent if he has a king (which I what I put him on), and call.
River is another ace. He goes all in, about $35. Again, I go through the analysis. I still think he has no Ace. I decide he has the king, giving him Aces up, the same as me. As I think this player would have raised before the flop with a KQ, I decide the jack on the board will play, and we will split. I call.
He turns over pocket 2s, giving him 2s full of aces.
Could I have seen this coming? Part of my problem was that I usually raise with a small pair pre-flop, given the substantial increase in odds of winning for every person you get to fold. I know that many people will limp in, especally with the 2s, but too often I assume people will play a hand the same as I will.
Yeah, bet the flop. You can consider slowplaying if you have just the one other player in the hand, but even then it’s usually better to start building a pot – if he has a set or a worse flush you need to start getting money in there on the flop to have a shot at his whole stack, if he has the Ad you need to make him pay for his draw, and if he has pretty much anything else you’re not going to convince him to give you a lot of money no matter what you do. On the river you’re calling his raise and hating it without a good player-specific read.
Depends on the player, but generally you can call on the turn because of the odds (or not, putting him on K8 or less is really dicey), but you’ve got to fold the river. If there are six players to the flop, the requisite hand strength to continue goes way up, both for you and your opponent: someone absolutely caught a piece of a flop with a K and J in it (did you consider QT? It fits.).
In fact, you really should be checking the flop. If you lead out it’s hard to get action from a hand you beat (leading into 5 players from early position represents a lot of strength, most of your opponents will know this), and if you do you can’t stand to play a big pot with such a mediocre hand, making you extremely susceptible to semi-bluffs and the like. So check and see what happens behind you. If there’s a bet and a call, you’re beat the vast majority of the time, with no draw, and can safely fold. If only one player enters the pot, you can dick around, but, again, you’re not getting involved for much money without improving.
much like the reason why people only remember their bad beats, they also remember how many times they lose with premium starting hands (ala Pocket Aces and A-K)
A-A and A-K play almost every pot they can therefore they are going to get beat occasionally. No one ever loses with 8-2 offsuit, because that hand gets rarely played.
Low stakes players have actually told me that rather be dealt hand like 9-10 suited than A-K unsuited. Sorry, I’ll take my chance with Big Slick.
You have had some good advice about the way you played the hand up-thread, so I’ll just answer your final two questions. The most I’ve had in a pot is probably £250 in a live game of Omaha. Got all in having hit a set of jacks on the flop, 2 callers. One hit a runner-runner flush to take the pot on the river (I had most of my opponents’ outs covered with my full-house possibilities). That one hurt.
The best hand I made that had me sweating all the way until (and after) the river was a straight I made on the turn, and went all in on the river for a total of about £100. My opponent immediately called, and announced a flush, but on turning over his cards realised he had misread them and they were not suited after all. He took it very well, but not as well as I took the pot.
I don’t agree with your analysis; why could our hero not have had AT, for example? I like his play here a lot.
SuaSponte, VarlosZ has already told what I would have said, and he’s forgotten more about poker than I will ever know.
Finally, I know nobody asked but I can’t resist if we’re doing poker talk - the best laydown I ever made was KK before the flop. £1-£2 PLHE, everyone has a stack of at least £200-£300. Player UTG opens by raising the pot. I, to his immediate left, re-raise the pot with KK. Player to my left, a very loose-aggressive player, re-raises the pot again (which is now about £75, pre-flop, in a £1-£2 game). Everyone else folds, and the original raiser then goes all-in for another £150 or so. I fold, player to my left calls and shows AA, other player shows QQ.
Now, everyone round the table seems to think this was the best laydown they had ever seen, but I think (know) it was an easy crowd. After all, when I’ve seen a re-re-raise of the pot and an all-in after that, one of them has to have AA, right? It took me less than a minute to decide to fold, and I think most other reasonable players would also have done so.
What a break for the AA player. However, he later lost all his stack bluffing with QJ on the river with a board of A-K-9-6-2. His opponent studied for a long time, waited for a tell (or so he claimed afterwards), and then called about £150 into a £300 pot with 88. Good times!
One more piece of advice requested. What should you do when faced with the true morons? I don’t mean wildly agressive players, or people will play anything suited hoping for the flush. I mean the people who appear to have absolutely no idea what they are doing.
In the long-run, sure, you are going to clean them out. But what about the short run? If I’m only going to be playing for, say 1/2 hour, does the fact that there is absolutely no way to read such players mean I should steer clear of them?
This is why bankroll management is so important. If you push all in with AKs, and he calls with 93o, he’s still going to win almost 1/3 of the time. I believe your only solution here is just to make sure you’re playing within your limits and have some cash reserves to handle the swings.
I folded KK to a J96 flop on the first hand of a tournament.
Pre-flop, I raise UTG and get two callers, one is the BB. Flop comes J96, BB checks, I throw out a bet, MP pushes then BB CALLS. I’ve never seen KK shrink up so fast. I wanted to call just on principal but couldn’t think of a SINGLE SCENERIO where one pair be good right here. Mucked my kings face up, MP showed AJ (said he put me on AK), and BB showed 66 for trips. Sweet fold.
Some may disagree with me, but in a cash game there is almost no way I will ever, and I mean ever, lay down KK pre-flop.
I would have to have an absolute read on the tightest nit I’ve ever seen; I’d have to know for sure, 100% without a doubt, that they would only push with AA. After the flop is another issue, but pre-flop, never. Many players, depending on the course of pre-flop betting, are willing to push with QQ, JJ, AKs and even worse hands if they feel they can represent AA and get other players to fold.
In a tournament situation, I suppose there could be a time I would lay it down pre-flop, but they would be few and far between.
