Police beating in Philly

As a young longhair in the '60s and '70s, I had to take a lot of unwarranted BS from cops. An appreciation of what it feels like to be a wronged citizen definitely resides within my breast. It rarely got out of hand, and when the meat meets the meat, I think even the cops feel like it’s a roller coaster ride. Their job is to control the situation. And it is a difficult job.

From oldscratch:

I think the quote above approaches the guts of the enduring police brutality question (as it has evolved through the 1990s - not much point in dragging it back to the 1960s). Cops are screened for certain personality traits. What we want and what we get are the best we can come up with. Cops are selected for a degree of social compassion combined with aggressiveness. Cops have to be aggressive - the bad guys are aggressive and we fight fire with fire. Despite my experiences from 25-30 years ago, I feel like most cops do as good a job as can be done. And that includes the rather abrasive treatment I’ve experienced at times, such as when my neighbor made a very loud attempt at suicide. Her boyfriend and I kicked in the door and he removed a large knife from her hand and handed it off to me while he subdued her. Cops arrive, know nothing about the situation and pin (me) the guy with a weapon in his hand - I know how little they’re working with, go docile, and it works out.

OK, so the point is, how many people are there really out there who can do the job in the idealized manner that we often refer to. I think not many. Not many people who can tolerate having somebody attempt to kill them and turn the fear and anxiety off on a moment’s notice. How many of our posters here think they could be the perfect cop?

Outcome based analyses of social situations are the perpetual refuge of those who have no answers. You really have to think about what goes into it. So, where do we get all our perfect cops?

Well, Oldscratch, here I am. A typical dick-swinging, power-abusing deputy sheriff here in Florida. I have a wife, one son (one on the way), I live in a great place, and we’re all pretty simple down these parts. I love my family, my community, my neighbors and my fellow brothers and sisters in blue. I would lay my life on the line for them any day of the week and twice on Sundays. Hey, I’d like to come home from each shift alive and well back to my wife and kids. Even us pigs are entitled to that, don’t you think?

I don’t know much yet on the Philadelphia incident. Surprisingly quite a few of us understand that we are not judge, jury, and executioner. I won’t comment on the Philadelphia Police Department and their policies. This is for a panel of experts to review, as in all these cases of use of force. I know, I have been there and got the T-shirt.

Oldscratch, you seem to have your mind already made up on this case, and yet you accuse my brethren of meting out punishment outside of the halls of justice. I’m sure part of that comes from your political orientation. Fair 'nuff, it’s a free country and you’re entitled to that. I took an oath for 20 years in the military to uphold these rights. When I left and joined the police force, I took an oath to protect and serve the public and community. I made that oath with the same degree of seriousness and dedication. I did not do it to “swing my dick” or go power tripping on the public.

If these cops are guilty of excessive force then they should be punished. But that’s for an impartial panel of trusted public officials to decide, not a media circus-driven public opinion to decide, not by Reverend Sharpton or the NAACP. If that doesn’t float your boat, tough darts, it’s fine by me. And, it’s the law.

So are you saying that when a cop pulls you over for a speeding ticket you should get your gun out and shoot him?

If this guy didn’t have a gun, he wouldn’t have shot at the cops and would probably have gotten caught without any beating.

As for him “being innocent”: wrong- at the time he was “guilty” of being “a clear & present danger to the Public safety”, and until he is no longer, the Police may do whatever it takes to stop him from being such a “danger”. King was NOT such a “danger”*. Now, it does look like MAYBE the police went a little too far, but we weren’t in their shoes. It would not be unjustified if some of those officers were perhaps given administrative punishments. But they were LEGALLY in the right, but perhaps not morally, as they were unable in the heat of the moment to actually decide when that “danger” ended. I really believe that they thought the danger was still there, but at that point they were unable to make a cool & unbiased decision. Perhaps a couple weeks off w/o pay and a mandatory “anger management” class or something, might be the right thing for some of the officers involved.

  • I still say to this day, that the problem in the King case was the LAPD attitude of “we can do no wrong, we ARE the Law”. If Gates had called those guys in and said “Men, hand over your guns and badges, you’re off the force as of now”, there would have been no riots, and likely no prison terms for the Officers.

If you watch the tape he does not appear to be such a threat that he required 20 cops beating the crap out of him to cuff him. It is unfortunately difficult to see whether/how much and how long he is struggling, since he is obscured by the bodies of the cops after the first few seconds. If I am wrong and he was resisting to such a degree that all those cops whaling on him were necessary to take him into custody, I will admit they were right to do what they did. If he was subdued but they did not see/believe it, and continued beating on him, I can understand why they did what they did; they could stand some more training but they were not morally in the wrong. If they knew he was subdued but did not stop hitting him, they were wrong. Some shoved others out of the way to get their lick in; this bespeaks vengeance, not justice. The supervising office there stopped the cops and cleared the scene; not admissiable in a court of law, but he was there and certainly seemed to think those actions were unnecessary.

oldscratch:

I am quite capable of deciding whether someone is guilty. Such a decision does not have the same legal force as a jury’s decision, but that does not mean it doesn’t exist.
Danielinthewolvesden

Someone driving without any concern for public safety is not a clear and present danger? Or are you refering to after he was removed from the car?

Did the officers get prison terms?

SuaSponte

Cops can’t avoid being human. While they of course should strive to put their feelings aside, we should not expect them to do so perfectly.

greatsatan666:

Any time anyone leads the police on a high speed chase, or any chase at all for that matter, he is resisting arrest. Do your comments apply to other situations?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by The Ryan *

Someone driving without any concern for public safety is not a clear and present danger? Or are you refering to after he was removed from the car?
<Well, after he was removed from the car,for sure; but even reckless driving is not a “clear & present danger”>

Did the officers get prison terms?
/QUOTE]
Yes, later they were tried again in a Federal court for violating Kings “civil rights”, and some given up to 5 years. Clearly a sop. But in the face of LAPD arrogance, perhaps nessesary.

Let’s not forget that cops have a dirty, thankless job, swimming against a tide it seems like will never turn. In the right situation, there aren’t many of us who wouldn’t be glad to have them on our side. But like many aspects of our society, the internal problems within police departments have become rampant, insidious, entrenched, and in more and more cases, threatens or even violates the justice that having a police force seeks to preserve. So in the wrong situation, I believe anybody could become a victim of improper or even illegal law enforcement.

I think the Philly beatings, justified or not, demonstrate the mentality many, many, many cops have–call it adrenaline, dick swinging, combat-zone paranoia–whatever. It’s dangerous. It causes people harm. It disserves the cops’ own interests and goals. In my dozen or so encounters with law enforcement, mostly for very minor infractions, I have been frightened for my freedom/health because of this “war-zone” attitude displayed by cops. It’s nothing short of rabid, and I can tell you I’m the most submissive, polite, ass-kissing white boy whenever I meet up with somebody in uniform precisely because of it. Sometimes, the cops’ minds are already made up. They threaten violence, display their weapons, threaten to charge me with things simply because they can, and in at least six of those cases, they outright lied.

It’s sad, because I know good cops, and it gives them a bad name–because most people I have known only seem to meet up with bad cops. Read: BAD cops. Brutality and excessive agression is only one problem in a variety of problems and corruption in police departments.

Sailor, you mentioned the story where you were able to get a few good kicks to a scumbag in. I know that felt good–I would have wanted to do the same thing myself. To quote you:

“So, should it be legal to beat up on that scum? Probably not. Would I do it? You betcha!”

The difference is, you as a citizen could get thrown in jail or sued or killed by a cop for beating up on someone. A cop beating up on the citizen, unless, of course it’s videotaped, has a very good chance of getting off without having to be accountable in the slightest.

Maybe the scumbag in the Philly tape, scumbag though he was, fought back in the way he did because he knew what was coming to him–no matter how he played it.

What’s the quote? Let he who has no sin cast the first stone?

I challenge anyone post here who can say they’ve been able perform their job, any job, 100% without any human emotion whatsoever. Of course the cops would want to beat the crap out of that guy.

An how can anyone say that guy is innocent, or not guilty until judged by a jury? If someone shoots you in a robbery would you say “No, I won’t consider him guilty until a panel of jurers find him guilty?”. That’s stupid.

This is a tough one. A high-speed chase is probably one of the most stressful things anyone can go through in real life (no matter how film and TV portray it). Coupled with the fact that the suspect allegedly shot at cops and may in fact have shot a cop, it can cause some cops to overreact when they finally pull him out of the stolen cruiser. Although understandable, it does not justify the actions undertaken. Cops have to remain professional in their duties at all times. That is the price of wearing the uniform. At minimum, suspensions are definitely in order.

Because sometimes the cops grab the wrong guy!!! A lot of things that seem appropriate in the heat of the moment seem excessive later on.

But as for this case, we all know what this is. It’s called payback. This guy stung one of their own, and they felt they had to get in a few licks to discourage others from trying it. Happens everytime a cop gets bruised. But usually, cops are smart enough not to get filmed in the process. These guys were not the brightest bulbs in the box.

It would be interesting to see how some of you armchair moralists would react in a similar life/death situation.

Many of the postings to this board indicate inappropriate responses to even minor inconveniences (slow pizza delivery, poor customer service, etc., et yada), wherein many of you sound on the verge of going postal.

You’re quite willing to issue moral judgements on others facing grave circumstances you will never encounter.

Hypocrisy?

If you don’t like how the police treat an asshole criminal, march down to your local police station fill out an application get a job and change it from within. We all know how well police are paid and how well they are treated by the public. In my opinion his parents should get their asses kicked to. Act like an animal get treated like an animal. I bet it would all be better if he would have killed a child while driving like a f-ing idiot before the police caught him. Its not like he said “Hey, I’m sorry let me turn myself in like a good boy.” They had to run this animal down before he hurt some innocent person.

Some of the recnet posts here remind me of the most frightening words I know:

“If you’ve done nothing wrong you’ve got nothing to fear.”

picmr

picmir, some people are just tired of criminals being treated like babies. I hate it when liberals try to justify the actions of criminals by saying “Its not his fault, he had a terrible childhood.” Or like whats going on in Philli, “Its not his fault he stole the police car because he just knew he was going to get beat up by police.” Never mind all of the actions that led up to him getting kicked on the ground. Its an insult to every person that is willing to take responsibility for his own actions.

Criminals treated like babies? Lessee we don’t yet put our babies in prisons so I don’t know where this one comes from. Criminals don’t get breastfed, don’t get pushed around in strolers, don’t (yet) have to wear diapers.

[quote]
also
** Its an insult to every person that is willing to take responsibility for his own actions.**
I agree. It would be nice if the cops would take responsibility for their actions. Unfortunately they almost never do. They feel they can treat suspects like shit, deal drugs, beat up innocent people, and get away with it.

[quote]
Originally posted by Major Feelgud
**So are you saying that when a cop pulls you over for a speeding ticket you should get your gun out and shoot him?

If this guy didn’t have a gun, he wouldn’t have shot at the cops and would probably have gotten caught without any beating.**
No. Don’t be stupid about it. What he is saying that if a cop pulls him over the cop shouldn’t feel like he can walk all over his rights. If a cop bursts into your home and starts shooting you should be able to defend yourself.

As for the guy not getting beaten up if he didn’t have a gun. The beating was only the tip of the iceburg. While I can’t speak for Philly, I imagine cops over there are generally more brutal than they are here in SF. In SF cops abuse their power every chance they get. There are plenty of cases of unarmed people being attacked and brutalized by the cops. The only reason this is even an issue is that a camera happened to be available nearby.

Oldscratch, did you gat a speeding ticket and the police officer hurt your feelings? The truth is that we all have to live under laws and rules that we may not agree with, and that society has given police officers the power to enforce them. Should we put up with anyone who abuses that power? Hell no! Should we compare someone who car-jacked an old lady, snatched purses, shot a police officer, risked dozens of lives trying to avoid arrest, with some poor soul who thru no fault of his own became a victim of a bad cop? Hell no! Sadly some people think that the police should just ask an armed animal to give up and if he does’nt just let him go. Police officers are humans and will do as good a job as they can.

From two different posters:

I found this an odd juxtaposition of the word “liberal”.

They do have ride-along programs in a lot of city and county law enforcement agencies. I haven’t had one single critic yet take up on the offer to ride with me or my fellow deputies. And we get our fair share even down these parts.

We get our share of Monday morning quarterbacks and (as Sneevil) puts it. “armchair moralists”. Christ, people, if you want to make judgement calls about police procedure, at least go on a ride-along or attend a citizens police academy/seminar and see how life on the streets really is. It may surprise some of you that there are people out there who would happily slit your throat and your family’s for a few dollars and laugh about it over a beer. Exaggeration? Let me know and I can post some serious “no-shit” reports here on line.

What’s the most force you can use? Five hits with a baton, a full can of OC, ten cops piling on with fists and kicks? Several shots of semi-jacketed 9mm hollowpoint? It’s whatever is needed to end a dangerous situation to yourself, your partners, and the general public. One baton hit may be too excessive, or fifteen slaps with an ASP baton may not even be enough. It is situational, a competant review board will determine it along with reliable on-scene witnesses from both police officers and public bystanders.

Watching assorted clips from CNN and “he says, she says” accounts combined with your preconceived notions of your past experiences with police does not light a path to the truth. How would you like it if the district attorneys prosecuted you on these grounds? Not too cool right? I
won’t comment on the actions of the Philadelphia cops, I wasn’t there. I’d assume we’d give them the assumption of innocent until proven guilty, just the same as we would give the suspect in this situation. Is that a little too fair for some of the posters on this thread? Some will always hate cops and what we do. Fair enough, I’m not asking anyone to waltz out and donate to the Police Athletic League after this. Just show some moderation and common sense, maybe even a little logic and reasoning?

If you’ve never had the pleasure of taking down a suspect high on drugs and/or alcohol, it don’t work out like TV cop shows. In our county, deputies can count on one or maybe two other deputies for backup after a wait of 30 minutes to an hour depending on our sectors and work load. I hit a suspect, who was riding a meth and malt liquor roller coaster, thirteen times using a combination of baton, fists, knee smashes and elbow strikes. It took two other deputies and myself over ten minutes to subdue one BM who was 5’10, 160. It’s documented on video and I went up on a review board like I would expect to.

I’m 5’7, 168, average build. My pic on the People Pages. I don’t look like Rambo or Robocop. Most of us, surprisingly, are fairly average people asked to do some real weird things on occasion. When asked by the board why I used the degree of force that I did, I replied that I (1) wanted him to stop reaching for my service weapon and (2) did not want to see him enter his vehicle, a hi-performance Mustang Cobra while his brain was juiced up on a meth and malt liquor cocktail. (Facetiously I wanted to reply that I hit him 13 times in honor of the Original Thirteen American Colonies, but that would’ve been flippant and disrespectful) I stopped hitting the suspect when he agreed that handcuffs and lying still were a much better alternative to three deputies beating him to jelly. Would’ve been great if this guy got into his car for a cool chase on the I-10 on that fine weekend. Just the thing to see caroming into your rear view mirror on that trip with the wife and kids to see Grandma and Grandpa right? Even if he got off from all charges, at least we prevented him from doing that. That’s a fair trade in my book.

Yeah he was a BM. Sound racist? Ready for Rev. Sharpton to pay a social call? Play the race card and see if I give a rat’s ass. Crime is an equal opportunity employer. That ain’t a caucasian face staring at you under my name on the People Pages. One of my backups was black and wound up getting bit by this asshole in the process of cuffing him. We all drank a few pints of his saliva and wore his blood all over ourselves. Fortunately no HIV or Hep, this time. After we cuffed and stuffed, all three of us looked like we had went a few rounds with Lennox Lewis and came out second. We just sat there shaking and thankful we weren’t hurt badly. My other female backup was fighting down tears and holding a sprained wrist. This is the reality of what goes on. We don’t high-five each other and run off to the donut store in celebration. I even cleaned up at the station and put on my last spare uniform before I went home so my wife wouldn’t notice what happened. Most of us don’t enjoy this, contrary to public opinion, it just comes with the turf. And we’re definitely not doing this for the money.

Well, didn’t mean to ramble on, I’m sure if you already hate cops then this won’t mean a damn thing. Do or say whatever it takes to float your boat. It wasn’t my intention to advocate a “law and order” platform in this forum. To those of you that understand what it’s all about, it is very appreciated by me and a lot of my fellow brothers and sisters.

Bluepony, my hat is way, way off to you.

I work for my local government, and in the course of working there, I’ve met a lot of cops. Sure, there’s a couple of idjits, but there’s idjits in my office, too.

A friend of mine is a police sergeant. He was having a conversation with the son of another friend of mine (I was there & heard this conversation) about being a cop. The boy graduated from high school this year, and wants to study criminal justice. My friend was very encouraging, but also took some time to tell him that it’s not always pretty. The boy asked him if he’d ever been shot at. My friend said “Yep, sure have.” The boy asked him what he did. “I jumped off the porch! Geez! You think I’m going to stand there & take a bullet? No way!” The boy also asked him if he’d ever been in a high-speed chase. My friend said that he had. The boy asked what that was like, and my friend said “I was so scared I almost wet myself. We were chasing him through the city. I not only had to keep my eyes on the bad guy, I had to look out for other cars, little kids, and talk on the radio to tell the other cops just what the hell was going on! Not fun, not fun at all!”

Most cops do what they do because they genuinely want to give something back to the community. They are hardworking, dedicated individuals who do not get anywhere near enough respect (or pay, IMHO). I don’t know enough about the Philly situation to form a concrete opinion, but from what I’ve heard & read so far, I’m leaning towards thinking the cops were justified in using a lot of force on this guy. I don’t know yet if they used too much, but so far, it looks to me like they had plenty of reason to think that if they didn’t use a whole lot of force, this guy was going to hurt or kill someone.