Police/pedestrian encounter (rights violated). What would you have done?

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
61

OP here. When I got home from my journey, I quickly jotted down everything that was said. One thing that stuck out was that the officer said, “you’re not in trouble or anything, I just want to know who you are”. By sayng that, he admitted to me that he had no reason to believe that I’d been involved in a crime, or was planning a crime. Therefore, he was not legally justified to ask me for ID.

Some other questions that have been brought up. I live in Virginia. We do not have a stop and identify law here.

How is exiting a store, then realizing I’d forgotten something and going back in, suspicious activity? Plain and simple, I was detained with no probable cause. I have a friend who is a lawyer (albeit in another state), I mentioned this to him. He told me that I absolutely did the right thing. I protected my 4th Amendment rights.

Another response above is that I should’ve been polite (not sure of the exact verbiage used). I WAS polite. I was very polite and respectful to this officer.

62

In that case, then I retract my earlier commentary - yes, the officer was harassing you, and it was probably against the law.

Maybe send a nice letter to your county/city/town council and your police department about the incident?

Don’t suppose you remember the officer’s name or badge number, that would help.

I don’t think anyone said you were impolite - the only comment I saw was that someone thought you were “confrontational” in a very professional and polite manner - I thought it was an amusing sort of combination.

I wouldn’t have been brave enough to say anything, but I am very glad for you that the officer didn’t take it out on you when you did stand up to him.

As annoying as the incident was, it could easily have been a lot worse.

63

Since I have a CCW and am always armed, I carry the necessary paper work at all times.

I always look like I just did something I shouldn’t and a LEO would be derelict in his duty if he does not check me out.

If I don’t wanna get checked, I need to change how I look, not try to be a PITA to every cop doing his job.

IMO, I don’t want any LEO to remember me as the assclown that always makes a big deal out of his rights. No matter if I am right or wrong, LEO’s that are actively watching you with the letter of the law in mind are no fun at all.

No matter how ‘right & legal’ you are does not make you a courteous person. I do not help discourteous people. I hope karma bites them strongly in the butt.

YMMV

64

It’s called an FI, or Field Interview, and cops do it all the time. It is part of community outreach and good policing.

You don’t have to talk, but you can clear things up right away if you do.

Sounds like the cop the OP ran into that night needs to work on his people skills, but it was a legitimate approach.

65

I disagree. Of course, it’s not in your best interest to be intentionally and unnecessarily argumentative with the police, but if you’re simply politely asserting your rights, and they take that as being combative, that’s their problem.

CAN they make it your problem? Sure, because they have power that they can abuse. But if we all just bend over and let them do whatever they want, that will just encourage the abuse.

Of course, if you felt physically threatened (which would be an OUTRAGE, but sadly, it happens) then you do whatever you have to do to keep yourself safe, and complain later. But I’d much rather stand up for myself as it happens, if I safely can.

66

Similar things have happened to me several times, usually while walking at night. Walking is unusual, I guess. Couple times they offered me a ride home but I was walking for something to do those times, not to get somewhere. They seemed sceptical but walking’s not illegal in America. It’s just discouraged, I guess.

I never had an officer claim that I must carry ID and I don’t know if I always had ID on me. I may have. If I did I would’ve produced it.

One time the cops actually searched my bag. They seemed to expect it would be full of something. Drugs? Stolen goods? Body parts? I think if I had declined the search they would’ve detained me.

Same town, I was walking home from work with another guy and he got taken away because he had a warrant. So yeah, I guess sketchy characters do walk.

I’m glad I live in a city now because I always felt that American small towns had too many police with too little to do. It sounded like the OP was in a city, though.

67

Well, not quite. As others have mentioned, you do not know with 100% certainty that the LEO did not have RAS.

Is there a way of determining (after the fact) the LEO had RAS to detain you? Not sure. I suppose you could file a formal complaint. Or hire a lawyer and sue him for violating your civil rights.

Respectfully disagree. When I believe my civil rights are being violated by a government official, I ***will ***make a big deal out of my rights. I refuse to move to the back of the bus.

68

If my garbageman tries to extend his authority over me in a way that is not in compliance with the US constitution, then it is not inconsiderate of me to take appropriate measures to curtail this practice. The same goes for cops, the guys mowing the lawn in the public parks, fire fighters, librarians and anyone else paid with my tax dollars.

69

This bears repeating. What the officer said to the OP is of no legal significance. If he was responding to a roll call announcement that morning that they had several reports of males in that neighborhood walking at late hours and breaking into neighborhood cars, he had no duty to tell you.

What is legally significant, however, is that after the OP asked if he were free to go, the officer told him to stay. At that point he was seized for Fourth Amendment purposes, and that seizure must be supported by at least RAS. A complaint to the department involved could result in an investigation that may uncover what the officer based his brief detention on.

70

Very true. And this is where it could sticky for the LEO. There is usually (not always) some kind of paper trail that supports the LEO’s RAS to detain you. If the LEO claimed there was a B&E a few hours earlier, and you fit the description, there must be reports and phone logs that document the B&E.

A PD or SO is usually obligated to perform an internal investigation based on a formal complaint. But PDs and SOs are good 'ol boy clubs, and the chance they will perform an objective and thorough investigation is practically nil; 99% of the time they will side with the LEO, even if it was obvious the LEO committed a crime by detaining you without RAS. After that point, your options are limited and expensive, unfortunately.

71

I think this represents a not infrequent situation, where the citizen’s choices are to either stand up for what he believes to be his rights, or to give in to some minor intrusion to avoid inconvenience. I resent what I perceive as the trend over the past couple of decades to sway people towards the second option. I also object to the presumption as to what constitutes voluntary consent in interactions between individuals and police.

72

Why not tell the police officer (in kind words) that you think this is a crock of shit and unconstitutional and you could file a complaint blah blah blah and still just give him your darn name if he asks again?

Its not like it cost you anything. It likely minimizes your inconvience as well as his suspicion, and he still learns something.

Then, after the fact, if your panties are still in a bunch, file a formal complaint. And, as others here have said, fighting “the man” on the street ain’t the place to do it.

73

Same here. When/if an LEO has detained me, I exercise my rights to the fullest extent of the law. I will also aggressively pursue a formal complaint – and a lawsuit if necessary – if I believe an LEO has committed a crime by detaining me without RAS. If no one ever does this, many LEOs will believe they can violate rights with impunity. We need to remind them that they can’t.

LEOs are trained to trip you up on this. An LEO will ask, “You don’t mind if I look in your car, do you?” How should you answer this question? If you answer “No,” the LEO will say, “No, you don’t mind? O.K., then I will perform a search.” If you answer “Yes,” the LEO will say, “Yes, I can look? O.K., then I will perform a search.” Nice trick, huh? So when an LEO asks to search your car, you should *not *answer with a “Yes” or “No”. You should reply with a *definitive *statement such as, “You do not have permission to search my car.”

74

Fuck that. I used to get pulled over a lot until I got my hair cut. Why should my hair length be legally enforced through harassment?

It wouldn’t if I was female. Gender is a protected class, que no?

75

I respect you for this position. Personally, I am not certain how I would act in such a situation. I fear there might be occasions in which I would acquiesce to avoid inconvenience. I gave had occasions on which what I thought were polite and reasonable questions to police were met with variations of “do you want to go to jail?” - to which my response was unfailingly “no, sir.”

Somewhat similar, I’ve wondered how I would respond to an employer’s causeless demand for a whiz quiz, whether or not I knew I would pass.

76

It’s good and wise to choose your battles. For some people, exercising legal rights in the face of police tyranny is a worthwile pursuit, but can be costly. Consider the case of Joel Rosenberg, who followed the letter of the law with respect to CCW, and is now in jail awaiting trial for…something. It certainly doesn’t appear that he violated any laws, but he’s still awaiting trial. All for exercising his legal rights.

77

Cold, flying colors while riding a chopper with a full face mask. And you would get smartass with the LEO? Even if legally you are in the right? You think the LEO’s should not check guys like me out? Stay away from me, you are trouble just begging for long year of official scrutiny…

All I need to do to escape these checks is to shave, wear a helmet and ride a Honda.

Even in a town the size of Tulsa Okla. you can develop a reputation and have the LEO’s know you are one of the good guys and they will leave you alone even if you scare the #$%^ out of civilians.

If a place is so big that you will not become known as a trouble maker, then it is too big for you to educate the whole law enforcement community without a lot of trouble & $$$$ and you’ll still prolly come up on the short end of the stick overall.

If it is small enough to actually make some progress, I have found that nice and proactive works much much better than reactive and dis-courteously.

When I moved to this area, I did, like I always do, and went and introduced myself to the local LEO’s, got their opinions on CCW and showed them my CCW which had been updated with my new addy and Driver License as required by law. I had pictures of my other bikes and told them of my late night rides and what they were about. (AA meetings) Pictures of me (Santa, the real one) leading parades in local toy runs also helps.

I act all kinds of silly and do many things that some would think I should be pulled over for and you know, it don’t happen. Bawahahaha

If I do like has happened in the past, I be a nice & cooperate to the fullest extent.

Even the few uptight, overly aggressive and power abusing local LEO’s, which sadly there are a few, do not hassle me or those who hang round me.

The general public is not going to join any crusade no matter the feet stomping done here on the SDMB. That option was lost about 1961.

YMMV

78

Considering that “V” and “D” are close together on the QWERTY keyboard, perhaps the poster meant dents, as in dents in a car’s body.

79

A cop has no legal obligation to tell you the truth.

80

First, customary video from Chris Rock on not getting your ass kicked by the police.

The ones that apply to the OP include:
use common sense
be polite
shut the fuck up
No you didn’t do the right thing. The correct thing to do is simply be like “I live right down the block and just needed something from the store”. I’ve been stopped by the cops many times over the years. What I’ve found is the best way to handle the situation is to be polite and courteous, feign ignorance and divulge as little information as possible.

Cops are not SDMB pedants who will debate with you for hours over the minutiae of the most minor infraction of your most trivial “rights”. They are big dumb guys with guns who have the difficult job of trying to tell the difference between troublemaking assholes and people who actually are legitimately supposed to be there.