I don’t entirely disagree with you. But maybe cops could instead simply drop and take cover and order the person to drop the gun—instead of the current practice of immediately engaging with overwhelming deadly force.
Exactly.
I don’t think there’s much daylight between our positions then. The police bias should be “don’t shoot anybody,” not “better safe [me!] than sorry!), however that’s accomplished.
It also depends very heavily on the race of the shooter and of the victim.
Why not, if insisting they let the perp take the first shot will decrease the number of innocent people killed?
The problem is that the only reliable way to determine that someone’s pointing a gun at a cop is if they start shooting. Because otherwise, you get people shot for holding a phone, or a coffee cup, or a comb, or nothing, because the police think they’re pointing a gun at them.
Yeah, that’s true for the most part (I think there are situations where someone is unambiguously raising and pointing a gun at a cop). Perhaps we’re splitting hairs. I think a cop’s strong bias should be “don’t shoot.”
I think the public’s strong bias around cops that are armed should be “don’t point anything remotely gun like at them” and expect to possibly take the consequences if they do.
Where I live, the local police do have a ride-along program, but they have a policy of never sending the units carrying a ride-along into these types of calls.
Interesting take. What in your personal experience leads you to that conclusion? You are way out of your depth here.
I did a ride along in the 90s and it was one of the most interesting and formative experiences of my life. Even though I looked like a hippie, the officer was completely open and honest with me to the point that I was very surprised. He was very proud of his profession and saw no reason to hide anything. He was the one who taught me to never answer any questions from a cop without a lawyer.
Before I did it I talked to a friend who was a former deputy sheriff. He told me to expect full openness unless I acted like a dick and that cops live ride alongs because it demystifies the profession.
That’s an opinionated statement without any basis in fact. You poisoned your own well out of the gate. There is no such training and more importantly, police officers aren’t a monolithic entity. They’re people. Each officer is different just as each soldier is different. Bravery isn’t based on an oath and it’s measure can’t be taken in advance.
There are countless examples of police shooting people to death when nothing is being pointed at them.
One that really gets me is the case of the shooting of Daniel Shaver by a cop who had an AR-15 trained on the victim.
Shaver was unarmed and was complying to the best of his ability to orders being screamed at him by heavily armed police officers. At one point they told him that if he deviated from police instructions again, they would shoot him. At which point Shaver begged them not to shoot him. Nevertheless, seconds later one of the officers opened fire on him at close range with the AR-15 after Shaver reached down to pull his shorts up while crawling on the floor as ordered by the police.
The police officer later testified he believed that Shaver was reaching for a weapon. And the jury that later tried the officer on murder charges believed this.
I’m sorry, but this is pure insanity to me. What are the chances that a person crawling on the floor in their underwear in compliance with a police officer’s orders while begging for their life with multiple guns pointed at them is going to actually reach for a weapon? Nil.
What possible danger was the officer actually in? None. Other than in his own head, and the mindset that any action by a suspect that remotely looks threatening justifies summary execution by the police.
But the jury let the officer off, and he was subsequently re-hired by his department. 
There is something seriously wrong with this, in my view.
Makes me wonder if you are actually interested in my answer. My actual experience is three attempted ride-alongs. The first one was ignored after 3 weeks of trying to arrange the ride-along. The second was with a white 6’2" male who I swear was reading a script from “ADAM-12”, was never called to do anything of consequence while constantly lecturing me on the importance of police work and how they are our “Last Line of Defense” and how they are the most qualified to respond to any situation. The third? I was assigned to accompany a traffic officer who mostly sat in one spot and, when he exited a vehicle, had me sit in the car “for my safety”, then came back to the vehicle and told me how unreasonable the offenders were while he was the very model of decorum.
By the way, this didn’t happen way back in the 90’s. This happened in the last four years on behalf of a social group that operated out of a local Episcopal church.
Thanks for providing that. You could have included your life experience as context. It’s a shame that you had such crappy experiences.
And you could have asked what I was basing my opinion on before making such a dismissive reply.
Live and learn.
As much as I dislike the anti-police bias on these boards I have to say there is such training.
From the day I entered the academy in 1982 to a recent firearms training I attended it’s been drummed in that I am number one. If I get injured or killed I can’t possibly help anyone else.
I am not a sworn officer but I am a forensic toxicolgist and an employee of a state police force for many years. I worked with, trained and sat in on training for road officers many, many times. “Officer safety first” was a phrase I heard over and over.
What is your source for this rather all-encompassing statement that there is no such training?
Except that “remotely like a gun” includes phones and coffee cups, and “pointing at them” includes just holding them.
If we’re really at the point where everyone needs to drop everything and put their hands in the air the moment they ever see cops, then the cops are the problem, not the populace.
He didn’t show you anything that he didn’t show you. How can you know what that included?
Then why do police officers themselves tell us that that’s their training?
Officially, in written training materials, I believe you may be correct and I therefore retract that statement. But I believe that is nevertheless the message that many police officers have received, as attested by @pkbites and @Toxgoddess.
With that said, there is written training on the so-called “Priority of Life model.”
Notice where “suspects” rank in this hierarchy.
With respect to the last two categories, here is what this particular training has to say:
Some of the issues I see with this training is as follows:
-
“Negotiation, de-escalation and other less-lethal tactics are preferred.” Not required, mind you, just preferred.
-
As previously noted, the ranking of suspects in this hierarchy. Suspects are just that: suspects. Not convicted criminals, but people who are presumed innocent of whatever crime they are being investigated for.
-
And the fact that police officers frequently seem to treat everyone they interact with as a suspect. Which is how you get people who called the police for help themselves shot and killed by the responding officers. People like Christian Glass.
And all of this assumes police officers actually follow this training. In what universe does a “proportional use of force” include 13 cops shooting two unarmed people 137 times at close range (after a car that backfired was mistaken for the sound of a gunshot)?! (To @Chronos’s point above, the two people killed were black, and the police department in question has a history of excessive force against minorities.)
All I know for sure is that I exist. How the fuck does anyone know anything? It seemed clear to me at the time. I checked in with my former deputy friend in a neighboring county who left law enforcement completely disillusioned with the profession and he agreed.
My solution which I posted in a previous thread:
Exactly. I actually bristle every time I encounter a police officer now. It doesn’t help that they are armed to the teeth.