Yes, you must be misunderstanding. I would not want to say that you were rationalizing. I am equating silly jokes about any minority being equivalent to silly jokes about any other minority, and slurs against one minority being equivalent to slurs against any and other minority.
I am also not equating discrimination between minorities when it comes to spoken slurs (as we have seen expressed in this thread) with discrimination between minorities in hiring and all the other actions you mention. Every item on your list is worse, by far.
And no, I have no concern about the “school children” red herring dragged through this thread by so many apologists for the bigots. What little kids do such as calling names, pulling hair or fighting is not at all equivalent to the public forum and media slurs by the celebrities you describe as “loutish characters” (thank you for that).
Besides Ferrell’s gratuitous backhand, we have recently seen a US Senator deliver a series of ethnic slurs targeting Polish people at a “swanky” luncheon and a world-renowned conductor making a similar ethnic slur part of his act delivered in at least one, perhaps a series, of PBS-sponsored classical concerts across the US. Arlen Specter, PA, then Republican, now Democrat, reflected on what he had done and apologized. I’m told that apologies have been made on behalf of Andre Rieu and PBS has refused to air the slurs when it broadcasts his concerts.
So it’s certainly possible for people to mend their ways once they recognize how offensive their behavior is.
My apology for saying you suck and blow at the same time. I could have said that you want to push and pull at the same time. Or you want to have your cake and eat it too.
It seems to me that either ethnicity doesn’t count (these “jokes” are just funny, not prejudice) or ethnicity does count (they are not just funny, you have to take historical context into account). But I think I am hearing that ethnicity both doesn’t count and does count, depending on whose ox is being gored.
That sounds like the definition of discrimination to me: Orwell’s contrivance that some animals are more equal than others. And if anyone here is championing discrimination between minorities then we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I believe in equality.
I was not accusing you of hypocrisy when I rephrased what I take to be the essence of your argument: “It’s just a joke and not “ethnic” if you are deriding Polish people, but it is prejudice if you deride certain other minorities.” If you are indeed discriminating between minorities, as I understand it, then I might “accuse” you of muddled thinking were you to deny it was discriminating. But “hypocrisy” seems a bit strong.
If my own thinking is muddled and I have misunderstood you, then of course I welcome your clarification.
I was also not accusing you of hypocrisy when I pointed to what I saw as examples of inconsistencies and lack of sensitivity in applying/adhering to the stated rules. These are only my opinions (given in the “gentle ribbing” style so favored here) and you may challenge my examples or not, as you choose.
In fact, I am not aware of any assertions about you made by me (I can’t speak for others, of course). To avoid anyone thinking you have made an unfounded assertion yourself, by all means provide examples.
With respect, I don’t think it’s my “refusal to take Ferrell’s (unfunny) joke in context” that’s a problem, but rather the problem of those who defend it. The context is a “family comedy” with this gratuitous slur flung against a single minority. (Does anybody seriously think that Ferrell and the director/producers intended a sophisticated, convoluted irony rather than a cheap shot? Are the kids who go see it really looking for a Noel Coward streak in a Ferrell movie?) If the context had been many such slurs against different minorities then some of us would still find that objectionable, but at least the targeting/discrimination aspect would be gone. Thanks for finding it unfunny, though.
I do agree with you that this thread is often absurd (see, "have your cake and eat it too, above) and repetitive (so many posters saying they define slurs vs. jokes by discriminating between minorities), but I commend you for your patience. You could invoke the “whim” clause at any time (I confess that, uncharitably, I thought you already had when I had trouble logging in earlier) but you gamely plod on. I tip my hat to you for that.
Is that your conspiracy theory, that I am in a conspiracy with someone else? By your own definition apparently not, since your position is falsifiable. But I challenge you to bring to bear any evidence whatsoever to demonstrate that I subscribe to any conspiracy theories. Or, you may choose to ignore or twist my challenge.
BTW, I think that your contention has already been discussed and dismissed, too - that one can “not really” substitute minority references in “jokes” to see if they pass the sniff test. But here we are, still talking about it.
It is not necessary for a conspiracy theorist to be in a conspiracy to have a theory about a conspiracy.
I think that US News, White Eagle, etc. are absolutely CORRECT. Although the Will Ferrell movie is probably better left ignored, it’s almost bizarre that so many people are defending Polish jokes (and dredging up cheap Polish stereotypes while they’re at it).
The hipsters who enjoy these “ironic” jokes have either never met any Polish people or haven’t considered the historical context. It doesn’t matter if Poles “haven’t died in the US”; the jokes reflect bad attitudes that are all too prevalent in other European countries - and are often used by people who are not being ironic at all.
You make a point, but since Irish and German jokes also do not influence heavily current attitudes, there’s a point where you just have to let go.
It’s not so much that we’re defending the jokes and the stereotypes therein as much as we’re rather bemused at how badly the original joke in Land of the Lost was misunderstood and the subsequent overreactions.
I like to say that if a joke is funny, it doesn’t need any defense. I don’t think we can categorically rule that ethnic jokes are funny or are not funny. So campaigns to ban all jokes about any group always seem misguided to me. I understand your wish not to be stereotyped, but I also think you’re making a mistake in taking this situation, and particularly this one joke, so very seriously.
I made no argument that can be distilled that way. I did point out that people might have a greater tolerance for Polish jokes than for jokes about black people given the history of the U.S.
Was “hey moderator!” addressed to someone else?
I disagree. Your failure to understand the joke guts your argument, since it’s a joke about the stupidity of Polish jokes.
There’s nothing sophisticated, convoluted or “Noel Coward”-ish about the joke. You’re giving the audience zero credit, which is perhaps understandable since they’re watching a Will Ferrell movie, but I think it’s incorrect.
Many people have defended the jokes, at least in principle, while acknowledging Polish extraction or ancestry. This makes your claim rather bizarre.
As a champion of free speech, I am against censorship. If there was a call here for a campaign to ban ethnic slurs then I missed it, and I welcome the opportunity to say that I am also against it. Freedom of speech assures Ferrell and others the right to make bigoted remarks, it gives defenders of equality the right to criticize the veiled prejudice, it gives apologists the right to challenge the critics, it gives the critics the right to talk back, ad infinitum. Sort of what keeps this forum (certainly this thread) going.
Since you are clearly saying that is not your stance I withdraw my rephrasing of what I thought I heard. If all you are doing is observing that there has been greater tolerance for these ethnic slurs than some others, we again agree. That is obvious. Some posters (not yourself, as you explain) appeared to go beyond mere observation and to use it as a defense for continuing to discriminate between minorities as the target of stereotyping and insults, saying that it was improper to use the substitution method as a sort of sniff test for gauging prejudice.
I think that all the examples I used were yours, but didn’t I also see other Moderators post comments here? Isn’t any Moderator empowered to act on appropriateness of posts such as the one I drew attention to?
So, what was my “assertion” again? I think “Hey, Moderator!” is just a salutation.
I wish for no minority to be stereotyped. Utopian, I know. But isn’t working toward that goal consistent with the site’s motto, top left of this page?
The interest in “this situation, and particularly this one joke” is only a focal point for fighting bashing of minorities. I don’t take jokes seriously (knock-knock) but I do take prejudice so very seriously. Just because someone disingenuously puts the label “joke” on something doesn’t mean he can say anything he likes with impunity. Isn’t it hard to keep calling Ferrell’s slur a “joke”, particularly since so many people on all sides of the question seem to think it is unfunny?
While it shouldn’t surprise anyone that some posters would passionately fight prejudice, I am still pondering what makes others defend Ferrell and his ilk just as passionately. Yes, it’s obvious that some (especially early) posters just took an opportunity to spread or to make up their own Ferrell-type remarks. But others have addressed the question so very seriously with no pretense at humor.
Were they defending free expression? Maybe, although I don’t recall any saying so. If they were then they would equally defend the free expression of critics, speaking logically, so I don’t have an argument with them on that count.
Another explanation might be cognitive dissonance, I suppose. But most likely it’s just that there are a lot of folks here who enjoy a good airing of opinions about social and moral issues. That’s never a mistake, in my book.
Yes calling people stupid who are of Polish ancestry (or any group of people) is indeed an ethnic slur.
Putting aside what Will Ferrell said, what do you think so callled Polish “jokes” imply about Polish people?
To sophisticated viewers of “Land of the Lost”, as you say, they probably will see the character of Will Ferrell as being stupid for bringing up the Polish people in that comment. But sad to say, many younger viewers, kids, teenagers, impressionable people in general, are not going to see it like that.
The fact that this whole thing got the attention of the Hollywood reporter Sheila Roberts is quite interesting. Its not like she was reporting for a Polish American newspaper and I doubt she is Polish.
Now there’s a phrase you won’t hear too often.
That said, I don’t think it’s fair to blame a movie (or book, or song, or what have you) for how the stupidest segment of its audience will react to it. Doing so is a bit like blaming J.D. Salinger for the murder of John Lennon. An artist can’t control how his work is interpreted, and shouldn’t be expected to self-censor just to avoid egregious misreadings. Is the intent of the joke in Land of the Lost to slander Poles? Obviously, no. If someone goes to the movie, and comes away with the impression that it’s advocating anti-Polish sentiments, the blame for that lies squarely on the moron who can’t understand the subtle fucking nuances of a Will Ferrel movie, and not on Will Farrel himself.
Historically anti-semites, especially in Nazi-Germany, portrayed Jews as being ugly, subhuman and vicious towards non-Jews. There have been many anti-semitic cartoons portraying Jews as being ugly and with a ruthless nasty demeanor out to “hurt others”.
So by your logic, you would have no problem with Will Ferrell’s character saying something comedic and ridiculous like “Forget the Jews being ugly vicious subhumans” ITS THOSE Dinosaurs that are ugly vicious subhumans!
Just imagine if some Jews protested this hypothetical remark and other people told these Jews to lighten up, and that these Jews were misinterpreting Will Ferrell’s character.
Why would these Will Ferrell comments about the Poles even come to the attention of an experienced Hollywood reporter like Sheila Roberts in the first place? Surely she would have overlooked it if there didn’t seem to be any possibility of it being controversial or offensive.
… yes, that’s precisely the logic I’m using. Well done on figuring that out. I’m not too impressed by your attempt to defeat my logic by presenting exactly the same situation with a different minority group substituted. See, just because a character says something in a movie, it doesn’t automatically follow that the movie is endorsing what that character says. Even if it’s the protagonist who’s saying it! So the mere fact that there’s a character in a movie who makes a racist or ethnic joke isn’t automatically worthy of scorn. The comment needs to be taken in context. For example, is the character who says the offensive line presented as someone who knows what’s going on, or is he presented as a bumbling fool who is constantly saying stupid shit? Another good contextual clue is whether the character suffers any sort of comeuppance for his words. In this case, we’re talking about a Will Farrel character, so “bumbling fool” is pretty much a given. And as a direct result of his Polish joke, he is almost eaten by a tyrannosaurus. The context cannot make it any clearer that joke is not intended as an earnest slur on Poles, and is instead a comment on the clueless and offensive personality of Ferrel’s character. So any outrage over the joke is clearly misplaced. This same logic applies no matter which group you substitute for “Polacks” in the joke, whether they be Jews, blacks, gays, Belgians, or Rotarians.
I imagine it would look very similar to what you’ve been doing in this thread. I hope that they would be taken about as seriously, as well.
You haven’t seen Borat, have you?
Indeed. Or South Park. (Cartman.)
US News, people protesting that hypothetical joke would be wrong for the same reason you’re wrong. They would be failing to understand that the butt of the joke is, in this case, the person making the racist remark, not the people the person is targetting. Because the sentiment expressed by the person making the racist remark is so over-the-toppedly absurd, the audience understands (or should understand) that it is his foolishness that’s on display.
Disclaimer: I have read the first two pages of this thread Aand have never seen the Will Ferrell movie that was cited in the OP. I still have some things to say:
I never bat an eye at Polish jokes or German jokes or any white anglo saxon type humour. I never tell people that I meet that I am half German because, frankly, I’m ashamed of it. Why? I have no idea. I did not choose my heritage and I am also half Spanish. I have no qualms about sharing that information. I’m proud of my Spanish heritage.
I was born and raised on the Gulf Coast of Mississippi. I am proud of my Southern heritage and will talk about my hometown until I am blue in the face. I will defend my home state against racists who think birth under the Mason Dixon line is a KKK membership.I will defend my home, again, until I am blue in the face.
I will not let a racist comment go in my presence. I do not accept them. I don’t get upset iif a black comic makes jokes about “crackers” or “whiteys”. Why would I? I have never been the subject of racism.
Maybe this is the not right thread for this and I apologize for hijacking but I think this is something that should be addressed. Why am I so ashamed of my German heritage and not ashamed of my Southern lineage? This truly makes me wonder, as I know I should be ashamed of nothing. I have no control over being born, yet these are my feelings.
BTW, I think blonde jokes are funny, too.
That they’re stupid, apparently to the point they forget to breathe if not reminded constantly by tape recorder. I understand that.
Should we ban jokes altogether because people might not understand them?
I don’t think Polish jokes are back in vogue, but ethnic humor seems to be (due to South Park, maybe). And I share this concern. It started off as a way to mock stereotypes and it’s getting lost in translation, or that it will. It’s something to watch out for. But your own posts show why it’s a bad idea to police jokes instead of ideas.
Very nicely said, Bosstone.
I already allowed that Shot From Guns probably wasn’t accusing me of being part of a conspiracy for other reasons but I like your additional consideration, cleverly put. Still no evidence being brought to bear to demonstrate the assertion that I subscribe to any conspiracy theory…
That’s fair comment, Miller. You have applied the substitution sniff test very nicely to reach your conclusions.
However, it’s still hard for me to “imagine” the sort of substitution posited would actually have been made by Ferrell in the movie and I don’t share your hope that concerns about it would be dismissed so lightly by so many posters.
Do you say “hope” because you don’t “believe” they would be?
Personally, I don’t believe Ferrell would ever have used the hypothetical substitution, I don’t believe it would ever go unchallenged, and I don’t believe it would have been defended as strongly on this forum as the actual remark has been.
That’s a testimonial to the terrific job that the Jewish community has done, educating and sensitizing others to antisemitism. My hope is that their excellent example is some day applied equally to all minorities.
Hear, hear.
The recent use of “Polish jokes” in a public presentation by a US Senator, and as part of a classical music tour by a famous conductor, and in a wide-distribution Hollywood movie by a fool may not make for a conspiracy and may not even mean ethnic slurs are coming back in vogue, but I agree it’s something to watch out for.