Political Compass #3: Pride in one's country is foolish

Great Debates
21

PRIDE (n) 1. The state of being proud. 2. Reasonable or justifiable self-respect. 3. Delight or elation asrising from some act, possession, or relationship. (from Merriam-Webster.)

Clearly, “pride” is a fairly loosely defined term.

Reading the question literally, agreement would mean it is ALWAYS foolish to be proud of one’s country. If you strongly agree with the statement, you are literally saying that it would be foolish of Neil Armstrong to be proud of his country for having sent human beings to the moon - an achievement of his nation in which he was directly involved. Surely Neil Armstrong can be proud of his country for that?

Similarly, the logical extension would be that it is foolish to be proud of your children, since technically anything they do is not your doing, or of your spouse, or of absolutely anything you did not do entirely by yourself. If your spouse gets promoted, aren’t you proud of them? Well, it’s wasn’t YOU who got promoted, so it is foolish to be proud? Such a belief is ludicrous, or proceeds from a definition of “pride” that does not reflect the full meaning of the word.

Obviously, there are some things it would be foolish to be proud of, and pride is (very, very often) taken to ridiculous extremes. However, it strikes me as being absurd to claim it is always foolish to be proud of one’s country. Being proud of something you possess - and citiens do to some extent “possess” their country - is sometimes quite reasonable. So I must Disagree. Like Jon, I can’t go as far as Strongly Disagree because pride in one’s country often is taken to absurd levels.

Diogenes, I agree with your point about the Constitution. It would be silly to be proud of the Constitution. But that isn’t what the proposition is, is it? The proposition is pride in your country - not pride in the Constitution specifically. The Constitution is, I dare say, a mighty small fraction of the entirely of what the United States of America is.

22

Not in my view. The more critical you are of something, the more likely you are to discard it without making any attempt to improve it.

“This is a pretty good car, and it would be even better if I washed it” is more likely than “who gives a damn what that piece of shit looks like?”

Or maybe they don’t need to be destroyed, and you don’t realize it because you are too critical of them. Or maybe they are being destroyed instead of improved, and you don’t care because you feel neither a sense of pride nor of ownership in them. And then everyone loses.

I think it is an overstatement to say that the only expression of pride possible is the belief that your country is perfect. The US isn’t perfect, but she is as good as any and better than most.

The USA has, by and large, been an enormous force for good in the world. She has a great deal to be proud of. I buy into that, and support her. Thus I share her sense of pride.

Sure, other countries have things to be proud of in their history and background (as well as sources of great shame). So other people should be proud of their countries, too.

C.S. Lewis (in The Four Loves) discusses love of country. One reason for love of country, he says, is because she is mine. Familiarity is the only way that some virtues can be recognized and loved. Fireworks on the Fourth of July, turkey on Thanksgiving, the sense of unity and common purpose I feel standing in line to vote on Election Day - these are things that cannot be understood from the outside. You have to join in before you know what that sense of pride is all about.

Koji Gushiken, the great Japanese gymnast, won the gold medal in the all-around in the 1984 Olympics. And I saw film of him, standing on the victory podium, listening to his national anthem, and crying like a baby. And I knew exactly how he felt, filled with pride that he could do this great thing for the society he loved. Japan is no more perfect than the US is perfect, but to be able to experience his pride in his country made everyone who saw it better people.

Regards,
Shodan

23

John Corrado, which of these definitions are you applying?

(from Dictionary.com. The other definitions are similar)

I am using definition 2 since it seems to be the only one which is applicable.

RickJay, I was specifically asked about the Constitution by JC so I answered it. As I said before, I think pride in country is only justified insofar as one makes a contribution to whatever qualities of that country one feels pride in.

24

I use definition 2 as well- “Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, possession, or association: parental pride” Emphasis added; I would note that you seem to be excluding the emphasized areas, as only “achievement” is allowable for pride; I believe pride for an association or possession is just as valid, and as one’s country is a very large association, pride in it is perfectly valid.
clairobscur: As Shodan said- if I take pride in something, I am very likely to try and keep it up to the standards which I believe it represents. Pride is not blind or all-encompassing; I don’t have to agree with everything this country is in order to be proud of it. Can’t I be proud of my father for having done so well in business while being critical of his more annoying neuroses?

Which brings up a question for DtC- I am given to understand that you have children. Are you saying that it wouldn’t be valid for you to be proud of them or their accomplishements? After all, it wasn’t you specifically that accomplished anything.

25

Disagree. (though not strongly)

Here’s a question: Can you be proud of your parents? My dad grew up on a farm during the Depression, joined the Navy, and eventually became a successful doctor. I’m proud of him for such achievements.

What about grandparents or great-grandparents, then? My great-grandfather came to this country with almost nothing, carved a farm out of a wilderness, and established a family whose successful descendants number in the hundreds. Pretty impressive. I’m proud of him, and my family.

On my mother’s side, my Aunt and Uncle, who ran their local butcher shop, loaned (often, w/o payback for years) many people in the community the money for groceries during the Depression, and kept them from becoming destitute. And their parents were penniless immigrants, too. So I’m proud of them for that.

I think it’s possible and reasonable to proud of your ancestors, and what they made of their lives–and the thing that they made is what we call this country. So I don’t think it’s ridiculous to be proud of the land of your birth. But at the same time, it’s not mandatory. Lots of people are born into lousy countries–and lousy families–and there may not be much pride in such a place/family.

26

This’ll surprise some folks, but I ticked disagree, for many of the reasons JC mentioned.

I’ll also add that I see my country as being far more than the state that wields coercive power over it: my country consists of my neighbors, and of the land, and of the nonhuman critters that live on the land.

When I go walking through the mountains I live in, I’m damn proud of where I live: it fills me with a deep sense of awe and satisfaction and love. When I go to a pub and drink beer that some artisan made and play trivia games with my neighbors, I think, what a great place this is! The artwork that comes out of our culture is incredible and vibrant.

This in no way translates to pride in my government; at best, I have a reluctant agreement that our government isn’t too bad in what it does on occasion. But the government is a very small part of the country, in my eyes.

And on the test, incidentally, I scored something like -6.5, -7.5. I thought my answers to questions like this would put me farther to the authoritarian side of things; it’s a little scary to imagine where I woulda been if I’d interpreted the question differently :).

Daniel

27

The problem with simpleminded and simplistic surveys is that they oversimplify. As has been asked before, what, exactly does “pride” mean? Does its use in one sense automatically preclude its use in all senses. Likewise, the specific question is utterly daft, because it assigns no motive.

It is possible to take pride in the country of ones birth for reasons having NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH HAVING BEEN BORN THERE. Thus, condemning the act as foolish with no information on the motive is, itself, the height of arrogance, narrow-mindedness, and foolishness.

And regarding the matter of pride in ones country. There are many ways to do it, some of which are not in a dictionary. For example, one could have a “houseproud” attitude–which means that one can be pretty much the utter opposite of a jingoist. Someone who is houseproud about his country can and will attack the flaws of that country, with great vigor. It’s pretty much the same as tearing down a leaky gutter so you can put in something better. Why do it? Because I take pride in my house, so I will work to make it as good as possible. I could just pretend the flaws aren’t there or merely cover them up, but that’s no way to take pride in your home. If you take pride in your home, hometown, homeland, you’ll work to find and fix the flaws, not deny their existence or cover them up.

And just becuase I take pride in my house doesn’t mean that I am required to despise my neighbors’ houses. Only a fool believes that to be the case.

28

At first, I chose strongly agree. After all, you don’t choose where you were born, why should you take pride in it? Nationalism can go to a dangerous extreme, as has already been pointed regarding the Nazis. I don’t know if I’m alone, but I get a little uneasy hearing crowds chant “U-S-A” at sporting events.

But there have been some fine arguments made in opposition. The county is, in some minute way, a result of each of us. If you work and pay your taxes, raise good children, keep up your house, don’t commit crimes, etc. all those things are part of what makes a country great. So you can take pride in your country by virtue of the fact that you indeed have partial ownership of it and made your contribution to its greatness.

My new position: agree (but not strongly)

29

Can I ask if you know how the change affected your score?

I ask because some of the questions on the Compass verged on the bizarre. The race question in particular, discussed elsewhere, seemed to be asking in a not-terribly-veiled way, “How big a racist are you?” And I wondered if any of the questions were weighted with that assumption in mind, that some questions were almost definitive.

The patriotism question was also one of those. Does feeling pride in your country move you closer to Gandhi, or to Mao?

This may also tell us something about the possible drawbacks and pitfalls of the Political Compass, and the presuppositions of the people who drew it up.

And SentientMeat - this is indeed a cool idea for a series of threads, and thanks for starting it.

Regards,
Shodan

30

My impression, which admittedly could be way off, is that in some European democracies (France and Austria come immediately to mind) you have much more explicit racists who hold some political power. While you don’t have very much explicit racial chauvinism here in the US, these questions might be more telling in other countries.

Can anyone back this up, or shoot it down?

Daniel

31

I have one child. I think that parenting and nurturing a child is an achievement and is something to be proud of. To answer your question, I can take pride that I have parented a child who can achieve but her accomplishments are her own.

32

Hmm…actually I considered that too, but after having thought about it, it came to my mind that one usually choose one’s spouse, and brought up one’s children, so there are way more reason to feel pride for their achievments than for your country’s achievments.

More importantly, a country is an abstract concept, so it’s more difficult to explain the feelings you might have re this concept than than your feelings for your children/spouse.

Finally, I would say that there isn’t any country around which historically (even recently) acted in such a way that it would deserve praise (assuming that one can praise an abstract entity). Some have a significantly worst record than others but nothing more.

Also, what exactly are we supposed to be proud of? How far in the past are we allowed to come back?

If an american less than 70 years old should feel pride because the USA fought the nazis during WWII, then it ensues that a young german should be ashamed of his country, right?

Should an american be proud because his grand-parent’s generation fought in WWII, or ashamed because his parent’s generation bombed the shit out of cambodian civilians during the vietnam war? Should he be proud of americans fighting to put an end to slavery 140 years ago, or ashamed of americans fighting to preserve slavery 140 years ago?

Am I allowed to be proud of, say, Vercingetorix fierce resistance against Cesar in 50 BC?

33

Upon further thought, there might be some countries for which it’s quite difficult to find something their citizens should be ashamed of, especially amongst the small countries which haven’t been in recent times significant players in the international field (any country with some shred of power abused it). Denmark comes to my mind, for instance. I could find some flaws in its current internel policy, but I can’t find anything grossly wrong in its recent history.

34

Well, um, so? “No one chooses their country of birth, so it’s foolish to be proud of it.” That doesn’t say, “Nobody should currently be proud of their country.” Saying that I disagree with the statement (which I did) is not the same as saying that I’m proud of the current state of my country. I think it’s possible for people to be proud of their country, and certainly not foolish. Is it possible those proud people are proud for the wrong reasons? Sure. But in many cases it isn’t foolish of them.

35

I will restate the proposition here for the sake of clarity:

Proposition #3: No one chooses their country of birth, so it’s foolish to be proud of it.

I chose ‘disagree’, because of the wording there. The ‘so’.

I did not choose my parents - obviously - but I think they’re great nonetheless.

I did not choose my talents, but hey, I play some mean piano. I can still be proud of my piano playing.

36

I don’t know yet. I thought I would wait until there was a thread for each question, then resubmit the test and compare to the initial score. I agree that the idea of debating each question is great- this series of threads has been quite interesting.

37

First: Why must it be a binary quality? Why must one be either only proud or only ashamed of one’s country? Can’t I be both proud of American resistance to the Nazis while regretting and being ashamed of American action in Cambodia?

It seems to me that for something to be spotless and pristine to take pride in it- well, then, there’s nothing anyone can ever take pride in, right? I may be a good writer, but I make spelling mistakes, so I can’t take pride in my work. And I know better writers, so I’m not good enough to take pride in my work. Why can’t I take pride in something that is good, but not perfect?

Second: Why should there be a time limit? Humans are humans, and human nature has been human nature forever, and great actions still resound in our minds and culture no matter the time limit. If you identify with the Gauls, be proud of Vercingetorix. As one of Italian heritage, I take pride in Cicero, Cato, and Caesar.

38

I have never encountered the idea of pride in one’s country in anything other than the context of its political or military policies. If one disagrees with the state, particularly its more bellicose actions, one will be accused of lacking pride, and of being unpatriotic to boot (if not an out and out traitor). I have come to the conclusion that “pride in one’s country” is doublespeak for “unswerving loyalty to the state.” This is, to my mind, a foolish position, whether one agrees with current policies or not.

The duty of citizenship is, I maintain, to be vigilant, and to take actions according to one’s beliefs. The state’s position, though, is that one should be obedient, and take actions according to the dictates of the state. I can’t buy this. If I act under coercion, I certainly have nothing of which to be proud.

As I recall, Political Compass said I was a liberal with strong libertarian tendencies. I can live with that, though I haven’t decided whether the two are at all compatible.

39

Well, Kelly, I’m proud to be a New Yorker. I’ve always been proud of living and working in the greatest city in the world. I’m proud of how we cleaned it up, how Times Square is now safe, if a bit disneyfied. I’m proud of how we seem to have finally dealt with the mob. I’m proud of how we all reacted after September 11th. Maybe not every last person was a hero, but by and large, we acted in ways that said ‘the greatest generation’ has a worthy successor. That, in times of great distress, we will pull together and make things right. I’m proud of the way things happened in the Blackout of '03, how, in one of the nastiest traffic patterns in the US, people were volunteering work as traffic cops. I did that for a while, bought out an ice cream truck, some other things. I’m proud to be an American, too. To be an inheritor of Heinlein and Twain… and Will Rogers. To be a member of a country where questioning authority is at least as ingrained as following it.

America. Love it or leave it. It’s a decision any person has to make, but if I didn’t love this country I live in, I’d go somewhere else, myself, where I believed in the culture and leaders.

Yes, I’m proud to be an American. And I know the country’s not perfect… but I know that there are thousands and millions of people all looking to make her a better place. Though we may disagree on specifics, we do share that goal.

And what’s wrong with being proud of the things your ancestors accomplished? I had a great something grandparent that fought at Fort Ticeronda twice… French and Indian and the Revolutionary war. I’m proud of him, proud to be descended from him, and proud that we still have his story. I have a great grand uncle who was the carpenter on a clipper ship. I salute his courage, his desire to see foreign lands. I’m proud we have his tool chest… which may have some of the great something grandparent’s tools still in it, and proud to have his wife’s diary, and I salute her bravery as well.

I’m proud of one final thing about America. Eventually, we do own up to our mistakes. It may take time, but we never stop questioning ourselves.

I, personally, disagree with Iraq II, with what we tried to do to Castro, with the CIA and the… er, American Fruit Company? in South America, and any number of other matters… but it doesn’t stop me from being proud of Fredrick Douglass and Abraham Lincoln, and a thousand other lights in the sky.

I just hope that I can live up to the standards they set.

40

Okay, so now we’ve had our Lee Greenwood moment, E-Sabbath.

I think you’ve pretty much proved my point by pulling out the old “America, love it or leave it” chestnut, which to me is just about the most offensive, polarizing, jingoistic catch phrase yet devised.

I would seriously question that your love of this country is any greater than mine. I was addressing the use of the concept of pride when applied to this, or any other, country. In my experience, whenever it comes up, it’s almost invariably used as a bludgeon against people who disagree with the government.

So which is it. Am I a citizen (I don’t think I’m exactly a member) of “a country where questioning authority is at least as ingrained as following it?” Or am I a malcontent whose best course is to leave these shores as quickly as possible (my own decision, of course)?

Governments are governments. Politicians are politicians. Dont’ get lulled by this pride thing, because while you’re getting all misty eyed, they’ll take away your right to dissent. They’ll take your children, too.