That’s really, really stupid. “We” is not oppressive, ferchrissakes, it’s a goddamned pronoun. And “insist” is “dictatorial” only if the consequences for failing to meet the demands are, y’know, dictatorial.
I insist that people treat others with respect. The consequences for not doing so are that I’ll call them out for their shitty behavior and then I won’t hang out with them any more. That’s all. No firing squads, no re-education camps, no hearings before Congress.
False. Political correctness was presented as the one true way when I was in college in the early to mid-1990’s. It was taught quite formally and I didn’t go to an especially liberal university. I would mark 1990 - 1995 as its high-water point. It seemed to die a natural death after that but it has seen a moderate resurgence in recent years. It will die again just to rear its ugly head again in another decade or so. If you can’t tell, I am not a fan of it in general even though I am not socially conservative at all.
The SDMB is not representative of society in general. The OP and others have a point even if others don’t like it. Political correctness is a very bad trend in general that threatens free speech. I am not a big fan of Bloomberg in general simple because he is about the most authoritarian and liberal Republican that I can conceive of but he was correct in his recent speech at Harvard to tell colleges to stop shutting down free speech on their own campuses for any retarded reasons that their half-baked students or faculty come up with.
Political correctness is a real phenomenon. It isn’t about acceptance in general. It is very much about authoritarianism and shutting down free speech based on any half-assed idea that a small group of people deems is correct at the moment.
It doesn’t even matter if it isn’t derogatory and hateful in itself when applied to transvestites. Quite a lot of *transsexuals *are offended by being called transvestites, regardless of whether it’s the whole word or the short one.
Cool, but it really isn’t up to you (in the general sense) to define what words are hateful or not. That varies widely based on the circumstances and the individual’s background. Some people use seemingly innocuous terms in a hateful way while others may use ‘incorrect’ terms with no ill intent. I have only known one transvestite personally in all my years on earth. He was straight and got more women that I can ever hope for so I admired him for that.
Now I am being told that there are a whole rainbow of gender and sexual preferences that don’t always overlap and you have to use the exact right term for each of them or convulsions and legal action might result. I am not going to do that. I will call them ‘John’ or ‘Jane’ or whatever their name is and treat them with general respect but I am not interested enough to delve into their personal identity issues just like anyone else.
I really and truly don’t care and I think that is the end goal. Pick whatever gender you want. Sleep with whoever you want. It makes absolutely no difference to me. The conflict comes when you want me to memorize a list a terms that tend to change over time based on your own preferences. That is what the current politically correct movement is doing and it is counterproductive. It is all about isolating and categorizing when that is the exact opposite of general assimilation. Why don’t you just let people be who they are as individuals and not try to force labels on them?
[shrug] As Alexis de Tocqueville observed, the most liberal democracy still leaves room for the tyranny of social pressure, which, indeed, is the more pervasive when government is less so. If the tyranny of social pressure will always be with us, better it should be used for good purposes, and PCness qualifies.
No it doesn’t. It CAN be used for good in the same way that a stopped watch is right twice a day but it is more generally a bullying tactic used to stifle free speech rather than a tool for true acceptance. In fact, it antagonizes those that may agree with controversial issues more often than not so I would say it is counterproductive.
Political correctness was born out the worst parts of liberal thought and academia rather than a grass roots movement to right any (legitimate) social injustices. There are true adult and effective ways to address the real issues but political correctness is not among them. It is a childish, authoritarian and even anti-intellectual movement perpetuated by the very groups that should be most against it in the first place.
Political correctness is the liberal equivalent of Fox News combined with Jesus fish and 2nd amendment bumper stickers in the right wing world but, for some reason, liberal types can’t see the irony or the parallel. I dislike them both equally.
Could I trouble you for some examples?
Sure, here is a couple of recent shining examples of political correctness. Two of the most successful and influential women in the world were forced to forgo giving commencement speeches because of protests that said they were part of the ‘patriarchy’. How many more do you want? We can be here for days. This insanity knows no bounds. Hint: they didn’t just choose not to go, they were forced out by an incredibly ignorant and close-minded minority of people but that is what it is all about.
People protested against Rice because of her role in the Iraq war. The petition against LaGarde does say the IMF supports a patriarchal system, but whether you believe it’s right or wrong, it’s a more coherent objection than you’re making it out to be and it appears to be part of the objection, not the whole thing. Further, what debate was shut down? That’s what I’m really interested in here: the idea that if someone invokes PC-ness, whatever it is, some legitimate debate topic is strangled. I’m pretty sure the debate over the Iraq war is over, and I think people are going to go on arguing about the IMF.
Bull. They weren’t forced to do anything. You just described them as “two of the most successful and influential women in the world.” They didn’t want to speak if people were protesting their appearance. It’s their choice, and protests are part of the whole free speech package.
[QUOTE=Shagnasty]
… but he was correct in his recent speech at Harvard to tell colleges to stop shutting down free speech on their own campuses for any retarded reasons that their half-baked students or faculty come up with.
[/quote]
I dislike the use of the term “retarded”, and I judge people (poorly in the case of using that word) based on the words they use. To me, much of the bemoaning against “political correctness”, is just that, certain people not liking being judged based on what and how they express themselves.
Do you honestly think it is more likely that I chose the word ‘retarded’ to be derogatory to children with brain disabilities or I meant it in the colloquial sense for people that should have more sense but don’t somehow? You can ponder that one on your own for as long as you wish. That is a key point in this thread and the part where people differ.
Do you have any proof of this, other than your own say so?
Neither. False dichotomy.
I think it means you are uncivil enough to use a term the people involved themselves find distasteful.
Does that make you a bad person? Not necessarily. Does that make you at least somewhat (and deliberately) rude? Sure.
There’s more than a fine line between being the scum of the earth and being a saintly do-gooder. Your question implies that nothing else exists. Get rid of the false dichotomy and it lies in between - not civil enough to think anything actually wrong of using the term but not so bad as to be nasty about it.
As I noted earlier, the road to hell and all that. Intentions are well and good, but they’re not sufficient on their own.
Really? You had classes in how to be politically correct? The student handbook announced that certain rules were enforced explicitly to conform to political correctness?
How odd.
But surely it only has what you describe as the colloquial sense becuase of its primary referent, those with learning disablilities? Every time you use it in the collequial sense you are invoking the primary sense; it’s only because of the primary sense that the colloquial sense has any force or impact.
I honestly don’t see that this is any different from using terms like “gay” as pejoratives.
As Marley23 pointed out, these examples are really feeble. Rice wasn’t “forced to forgo” her speech by anyone: she chose not to give the speech because she thought the controversy would be “distracting”. Same thing for Christine Lagarde withdrawing.
And your presentation of the protestors’ objections is really quite disingenuous. You may disagree with people who condemn the Iraq War and/or the IMF, but you are not being honest if you imply that their condemnation was only or primarily about “patriarchy”.
If students want to protest a particular choice of commencement speaker for whatever reasons, they’re entitled to do so. Free speech. If the chosen speaker then voluntarily chooses to withdraw from the speaking engagement, for whatever reasons, they’re entitled to do so. Free speech.
At my own alma mater the year after I graduated, a commencement speaker actually declined his honorary degree at the lectern because so many students and faculty had protested inviting him to speak. At the same college this year, one of the commencement speakers criticized from the lectern members of the college who had protested the invitation of another proposed speaker, and also criticized the speaker in question for withdrawing in response to the protests. The protests didn’t stifle free expression or debate: they ended up actually promoting it, because people chose to respond to the protests by discussing the issues involved.
Anybody at all controversial who’s invited to give a commencement speech knows that there will be somebody protesting the invitation for some reason. Any speaker who decides to withdraw in response to such protests is free to do so, but any speaker who would withdraw and then describe themselves as having been “forced out” by the protests would be a contemptible whiner and wimp.
(So, Shagnasty, what’s your take on the massive “pro-life” protests at Notre Dame in 2009 in response to their inviting Obama to speak at commencement? Legitimate expressions of opinion, or just more “political correctness insanity”?)
Here’s a small list:
USA: Pink locker rooms equals oppresion of women and homosexuals (Pink locker rooms and a knee jerk feminist. - The BBQ Pit - Straight Dope Message Board)
UK: Cooing over new-born babies is an infringement of their human rights (BBC NEWS | Have Your Say | Should cooing at babies be banned?)
UK: Councils ban ‘elitist’ and ‘discriminatory’ Latin phrases (Councils ban 'elitist' and 'discriminatory' Latin phrases) (btw. I love the phrase: “linguistic equivalent of ethnic cleansing”)
UK: Snowman is a sexist, racist: UK academic (Indiainfo.com -> News -> World -> Snowman is a sexist, racist: UK academic)
UK: Nude painting now seen as offensive becuase the nude is smoking ("Brazen" nude shown in public for first time in 61 years)
UK: Spot the difference: How today’s airbrushing PC censors decided Churchill could do without his cigar (Churchill as a non-smoker: How today's PC censors airbrushed out his cigar | Daily Mail Online)
The Nigger of the Narcissus in a new edition: The N-Word of the Narcissus (http://www.amazon.com/N-word-Narcissus-Joseph-Conrad/dp/9076660115/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top)
UK: Employer told not to post advert for ‘reliable’ workers because it discriminates against ‘unreliable’ applicants (Employer told they can't advertise for 'reliable' workers... because it discriminates against 'unreliable applicants | Daily Mail Online)
USA: Black hole racist (http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/2008/07/dallas-county-meeting-turns-ra.html/)
Sweden: Swedish woman accuse cheese company for misogynic hole-comercial (http://politiken.dk/forbrugogliv/livsstil/forbrugersikkerhed/ECE1032900/svensk-kvinde-anmelder-ostefirma-for-hulreklame/)
Canada: Gay slur in lyrics disqualifies Dire Straits hit from Canadian radio play (Gay slur in lyrics disqualifies Dire Straits hit from Canadian radio play - The Globe and Mail)
UK: Feathers fly at the police station over gallery’s ‘bestial’ Leda and the Swan (Feathers fly at the police station over gallery’s ‘bestial’ Leda and the Swan | London Evening Standard | Evening Standard)
Sweden: Tintin boycotted in Sweden: harmful for children (http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Kultur/2012/09/25/130852.htm)
Sweden: Popular children’s book Kardemommeby: very harmful for children (http://www.aftenposten.no/kultur/Svensk-regissor---Egner-er-direkte-skadelig-for-barn-7086217.html#.UsQuo2RDt2k)
Sweden: Popular Danish children’s cartoon: racist and islamphobic (Svensk harme over Strids børnebog)
UK: Grandmother won’t make Double Gloucester for cheese-rolling event after ‘heavy-handed threats’ from police (Grandmother won't make Double Gloucester for cheese-rolling event after 'heavy-handed threats' from police)
EU: The EU wants to ban candy that looks like smoking pipes (http://borsen.dk/nyheder/politik/artikel/1/264521/eu_vil_forbyde_lakridspiber.html)
USA: Dressing up for Halloween? This year’s un-PC themes (http://www.colorado.edu/news/features/dressing-halloween)
USA: Feminist Calls for Veganism. Meateating is misogynic (Feminist Calls for Veganism | News | The Harvard Crimson)
USA: School scraps ‘Cougars’ as mascot after complaints that it’s derogatory (to old women) (http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/19/school-scraps-cougars-as-mascot-after-complaints-of-it-being-derogatory/)
USA: Movember is divisive, gender normative, racist (Why Movember isn't all it's cracked up to be)
Movember as microaggression (Movember as microaggression - The McGill Daily)
USA: In a letter sent to colleagues in the department after the sit-in, Rust said students in the demonstration described grammar and spelling corrections he made on their dissertation proposals as a form of “micro-aggression.” (Students defend professor after sit-in over racial climate - Daily Bruin)
Sweden: Stockholm wants gender aware snow removal. Removing snow from roads before cycle lanes is patriarchal (”Snöröjningen gynnar män” | SvD)
Feminism and Programming Languages - wants new programming language for women (http://www.hastac.org/blogs/ari-schlesinger/2013/11/26/re-feminism-and-programming-languages)
A Feminist && A Programmer (http://www.hastac.org/blogs/ari-schlesinger/2013/12/13/feminist-programmer)
Sweden: Swedish parliament removes Baroque artist’s bare breasted painting for offending feminists and Muslims (http://www.thecommentator.com/article/4481/swedish_parliament_removes_baroque_artist_s_bare_breasted_painting_for_offending_feminists_and_musli ms)
Sweden: Licorose candy removed due to one piece having a shape of something that could be seen as racist (http://epn.dk/brancher/foedevarer/ECE6414786/haribo-fjerner-racistiske-lakrids-hoveder/)
Canada : Indian student told to remove shirt which said: Got Land - could be offending other people (First Nation teen told not to wear 'Got Land?' shirt at school | CBC News)
UK : University tears down ‘Flying Spaghetti Monster’ posters for offending Christians (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/02/11/university-tears-down-flying-spaghetti-monster-posters-for-offending-christians/)
Sweden: Baker told to remove racist cakes (Konditori kritiseras för"rasistiska" bakverk | Kvällsposten)
I went to The Evergreen State College, possibly the most liberal public school in the nation, in the mid-nineties, and never had any sort of formal training in political correctness–unless that means I took classes in which political dynamics were analyzed according to race/class/gender. Which would be an even more stupid definition of political correctness than the dumb ones already offered. Shagnasty, when you claim it was taught formally at your school, I don’t believe you. (Which isn’t a new thing, of course, but it should be said).
And your examples of the perils of PC–people deciding not to speak at commencement because dissent terrifies them–are precisely the opposite. Rice dislikes debate so much that she’ll refuse to go somewhere where her actions are questioned, and the people who question her are at fault? Bullshit.
I pulled one of your list at random. Here’s what should have been the lede:
So, no, they DIDN’T scrap it because of the double entrendre. They scrapped it because it was too much like an already existing mascot. But the blogger had an axe to grind, and you didn’t bother to read the article to figure that out, and here we are.
I’m not of course going to go through your links bit by bit. If there’s one instance you want to discuss, let’s do that: choose one instance that you think exemplifies the harm political correctness causes in our society.
That is immature idiocy too. Almost all college protests are regardless of the position especially when they are protesting commencement speakers. Those types of protests are more common on the left but I look down just as much on anyone from any persuasion that engages in it.