Politically Correct Language to Describe People is 70% Stupid.

Great Debates
21

[QUOTE=Liberal]
Which is exactly why I (and others I know) prefer the term “Indian”. My grandmother explained it to me this way. After our ancestors were starved, enslaved, poisoned, massacred, uprooted, and pillaged of practically all their possessions, it is some small consolation to be able to remind ourselves of just how clueless and stupid our conquerors were.
[/QUOTE]

It’s a bit more of a problem these days, especially where I live. You may not have many natives of India living near you, but there are many more of those types of Indians in my neck of the woods than there are Native Americans. It can get very confusing. Surely you wouldn’t suggest that people from India pick some other name to describe themselves, would you?

22

[QUOTE=you with the face]
Because that’s too hard for Americans to do.
[/QUOTE]

I think part of the “problem” is that many White Americans just aren’t familiar with the geography of Africa. If someone says they are Sengalese-American, most Americans would just say, wha??? Or if they said they were Chad-Americans, they’d probably ask if they were a hanging chad, and then you’d get into all kinds of problems!

Americans mostly know that Italy, Germany and Poland are in Europe (somewhere), but get outside of Europe, and we’re not all that bright, as a country.

23

[QUOTE=John Mace]
It’s a bit more of a problem these days, especially where I live. You may not have many natives of India living near you, but there are many more of those types of Indians in my neck of the woods than there are Native Americans. It can get very confusing. Surely you wouldn’t suggest that people from India pick some other name to describe themselves, would you?
[/QUOTE]
Doesn’t matter to me, but I see no reason why they can’t just jump on the bandwagon and call themselves Indian-Americans, in line with other standard usages. I usually refer to them as Eastern Indians myself. And for full disclosure, I have to admit that I find a certain smug satisfaction in the terms being confusing for the reasons stated. Petty and jejune? Probably.

24

[QUOTE=ForumBot]
How does it make you feel better to be defeated by incompetents?
[/QUOTE]
The defeat feels the same either way. But from my point of view, why pour salt into the wound by refering to myself as a “Native American” in honor of a man who was a trespasser, murderer, and slave trader?

25

[QUOTE=John Mace]
Well, that’s what people are saying here. You’re the one who said it was we had a “problem” of what to call recent African immigrants.
[/quote]

Right. Sometimes we separate people from white, Hispanic, black for various reasons. Most European-Americans are going to just be “white”. Blacks aren’t just going to be African-Americans, because some are actually from Africa?

[QUOTE=John Mace]
I think there is some argument about whether or not recent African immigrants can use African-American, but it’s a tiny blip on the radar screen.
[/quote]
I’m talking about Monstro’s opinion. I don’t know how tiny a blip that opinion is.

[QUOTE=John Mace]

Why not just call people what they want to be called and not worry about it so much?
[/quote]

Because we don’t know every individual preference in all situations or how much they’re going to be offended by being called the “wrong” thing. That this is a focus of the conversation hasn’t become apparent to you yet?

[QUOTE=John Mace]
Frankly, I just like the term “American” for anyone born here unless there is some really significant reason to talk about the person’s ethnicity or skin color. When Tiger Woods wins a golf tournament, to me he’s just a guy who wins, not a Black guy who wins.
[/QUOTE]

Do you really think this conversation is about this sort of thing? No one’s problem is with how they’re going to say "Did you see that black/African American Whoopie Goldberg host the Oscars last night?

26

[QUOTE=D_White]
What sort of evidence would you like? Do you think the experiences that Fiveyearlurker had was made up or that his are unusual? In my own experiences some strongly dislike black and some strongly dislike African-American. It’s a crap shoot.
[/QUOTE]

I’m not about to argue about your experiences. They may be true or they may not. But I can say that:

  1. I have not met one black person who has taken offense by being called a black person. That includes myself. I have met one person who was offended by being called black, but it was only because he was the under the impression that he is white.

  2. No one who argues that they have seen this have been able to show me anything in the way of cites to support that there are large numbers of black people who have a problem with “black”. I’m talking about op-eds or essays here. Shoot, I’d even be content with a couple blog entries or message board postings. I haven’t seen anything like this.

Keep in mind that preferring one label over another is not the same thing as being offended by being called black. I strongly suspect that a great many white people think there is something offensive about calling someone black, which is why they seem to embrace “African-American” moreso than black people. But unless someone shows me some data, I’m going to have a hard time believing that enough black people are offended by “black” that it justifies white confusion over what terms to use.

27

[QUOTE=D_White]
I have a feeling if Kenyan-Americans weren’t accepted as African-Americans by the “descended from slaves” African-Americans in their communities, places of employment, etc., they wouldn’t be too happy about it.
[/QUOTE]

A lot of African (and Carribbean) immigrants hate being lumped in with the descendants of American slaves, so you might want to revise your feelings.

28

[QUOTE=D_White]
Right. Sometimes we separate people from white, Hispanic, black for various reasons. Most European-Americans are going to just be “white”. Blacks aren’t just going to be African-Americans, because some are actually from Africa?
[/quote]

Then just use “Black”. As was noted above by ywtf, it’s a rare Black person who is offended by that term.

Look. You said there was a “problem” with what to call people recently from Africa. If you know they’re recently from Africa, then use the correct term. If you don’t, I doubt anyone is going to be offended. You might get corrected, but so what?

Then just ask them what they preferred to be called if you’re so uptight about “offending” someone. I think the “offense” in the PC situations is not so much about race, but terms that describe physical or mental differences/handicaps.

It is very common to mention the person’s race (if that person isn’t White) in instances where it has no relation to the topic.

29

[QUOTE=D_White]
What sort of evidence would you like? Do you think the experiences that Fiveyearlurker had was made up or that his are unusual?
[/QUOTE]

He said some people are offended by the “wrong” term, but I think you missed the point he made. Why does this bother you so much?

30

[QUOTE=John Mace]
I think part of the “problem” is that many White Americans just aren’t familiar with the geography of Africa.
[/quote]

What I think is white Americans want a quick way of labeling someone without taking the time to actually get to know someone first. Calling someone “Kenyan-American” as opposed to A-A would require that they actually know more than what they look like.

To go even deeper, I think some white folks resistance to using country-based descriptions when it comes to black immigrants (and other minorities) is the product of Eurocentrism. It’s clear to them that Europe is made up of a variety of distinct ethic groups, and therefore, Irish-Americans should be distinguished from the Italian, Polish, Greeks, etc.

But Africans are Africans. If you’re in America and you look like you’re from Africa, then you’re African-American. Doesn’t matter if your folks have been in the country for 10 generations or if you just arrived from Nigeria, you need to be called African-American. Drawing distinctions by nationality is not an obvious first choice because so often Africa is treated like a monolithic blob.

31

[QUOTE=Liberal]
The defeat feels the same either way. But from my point of view, why pour salt into the wound by refering to myself as a “Native American” in honor of a man who was a trespasser, murderer, and slave trader?
[/QUOTE]

Fair enough. But if Vespuci pisses you off so much (I can understand why), what do you refer to as your nationality or citizenry? If someone said “I’m German”, how would you identify yourself in kind? “Between-mexico-and-canada-an”? I’m trying to sound sillier than flippant, but you see how easily it is to draw conclusions.

32

[QUOTE=you with the face]
What I think is white Americans want a quick way of labeling someone without taking the time to actually get to know someone first. Calling someone “Kenyan-American” as opposed to A-A would require that they actually know more than what they look like.

To go even deeper, I think some white folks resistance to using country-based descriptions when it comes to black immigrants (and other minorities) is the product of Eurocentrism. It’s clear to them that Europe is made up of a variety of distinct ethic groups, and therefore, Irish-Americans should be distinguished from the Italian, Polish, Greeks, etc.

But Africans are Africans. If you’re in America and you look like you’re from Africa, then you’re African-American. Doesn’t matter if your folks have been in the country for 10 generations or if you just arrived from Nigeria, you need to be called African-American. Drawing distinctions by nationality is not an obvious first choice because so often Africa is treated like a monolithic blob.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Do you think that most Black Americans are much different, though? I wouldn’t be surprised if more Blacks are sensitive to the ethnic diversity in Africa, but don’t most Blacks in this country have about as much knowledge of Africa as most Whites do?

33

[QUOTE=John Mace]
Then just use “Black”. As was noted above by ywtf, it’s a rare Black person who is offended by that term.
[/quote]

Re-read the conversation.

[QUOTE=John Mace]
Look. You said there was a “problem” with what to call people recently from Africa. If you know they’re recently from Africa, then use the correct term. If you don’t, I doubt anyone is going to be offended. You might get corrected, but so what?
[/quote]

I said there was a problem in relation to what Monstro was stating about not including immigrants from Africa living in America African Americans. Sheesh!

[QUOTE=John Mace]
Then just ask them what they preferred to be called if you’re so uptight about “offending” someone. I think the “offense” in the PC situations is not so much about race, but terms that describe physical or mental differences/handicaps.
[/quote]
Give me a break with the “uptight about “offending” someone” bullshit. Are you posting just to argue?

[QUOTE=John Mace]
It is very common to mention the person’s race (if that person isn’t White) in instances where it has no relation to the topic.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that’s a comfortable thing to ask someone when those type of situations come up.

[QUOTE=Marley23]
He said some people are offended by the “wrong” term, but I think you missed the point he made. Why does this bother you so much?
[/QUOTE]

I understood what he said. What do you thing is bothering me so much?

34

[QUOTE=you with the face]
A lot of African (and Carribbean) immigrants hate being lumped in with the descendants of American slaves, so you might want to revise your feelings.
[/QUOTE]

Calling immigrants from Africa “African Americans” is lumping them together with descendants of American slaves? No thanks, I’ll keep my feelings as they are.

35

[QUOTE=D_White]
Re-read the conversation.
[/quote]

No thanks. I got it the first time.

Right. And I explained why it’s only a problem if you think Africa is a country. Go back and read your original post. You lamented the fact that we call people from Italy Italian-Americans or just Italians, but you can’t call African immigrants African-American. People don’t immigrate from “Africa”, they immigrate from whatever country they were living in.

No, I’m not. But if you want to know who might be doing that, look at who everyone in this thread is disagreeing with. Hint: it isn’t me.

What type of situation? It’s a rare situation when you need to refer to someone’s race.

36

[QUOTE=D_White]
What do you thing is bothering me so much?
[/QUOTE]

I have no idea. Your posts expressed some frustration and I was confused about where it came from.

37

[QUOTE=John Mace]
(snip)What type of situation? It’s a rare situation when you need to refer to someone’s race.
[/QUOTE]

Although I think it’s funny when the fight announcers spend a lot of time bending over backwards to describe the fighters by the color of their trunks when they could have just said “the white guy” and “the black guy.”

38

[QUOTE=John Mace]
Agreed. Do you think that most Black Americans are much different, though? I wouldn’t be surprised if more Blacks are sensitive to the ethnic diversity in Africa, but don’t most Blacks in this country have about as much knowledge of Africa as most Whites do?
[/QUOTE]

I don’t think African-Americans are overwhelming superior to whites with respect to this view towards African and Africans, but I do think they are much more adept at recognizing when it makes more sense to use “black” (a racial identifier) and when it makes more sense to use “African-American” (an ethnic identifier). I think the reason they are better at it is because they are less likely to see (or want to see) all black people as the being same; they recognize that there are distinct groups, that primarily being between the descendants of American slaves and everyone else in the African diaspora.

39

As to the term “colored” applied to…them. I missed using the term, and have for some years returned to using it, largely because I think the entire hyphenate-American usage is clumsy, stupid, and pointless. And it has an unfortunate pedigree, in my opinion.

When I was but a lad, studying for admission to the penitentiary, the term “colored” was a polite reference and its usage stated that the (presumably white) user was making the effort to use a polite and semi-formal reference. It was a way of indicating a mildly progressive attitude (for Texas) without making a BHAD out of it.

The rules were rather complicated. My grandfather drove the bus that served the “colored” part of town, he got to know the regular riders, and they got to know him. When politely addressing him, the called him “Mr. Rip” (which was usual, everybody called him Rip for Ripley…) He might called them “Ms. Jones” or, given direct permission, called her “Sarah”. But she would never address him as “Rip”. Even when black drivers were hired, even when they became Teamsters, they always called him “Mr. Rip”.

Now, was this racist? Well, of course it was, Texas was racist, no two ways about it. But it was human, it was a way for people to adjust to reality as it was, and to assure each other of their benign intentions. And I honor that humanity and that intent, and if I thought African American was the best way to do it, I wouldn’t hesitate. But I don’t think so, I think it has a soiled heritage, I think the hyphenate is artificial and mechanical, I think it fosters more seperation rather than fostering integration and a sense of welcome.

But if the colored people I know tell me that the term hurts their feelings, then by golly its done for!

40

[QUOTE=John Mace]

Right. And I explained why it’s only a problem if you think Africa is a country. Go back and read your original post. You lamented the fact that we call people from Italy Italian-Americans or just Italians, but you can’t call African immigrants African-American. People don’t immigrate from “Africa”, they immigrate from whatever country they were living in.
[/quote]

It’s not that simple. African-American is often, if not mostly used as an updated term for “colored”, “black” etc. Americans from Africa are black too. Also, Americans from Africa ARE African-Americans! By telling them they’re not because they aren’t descended from slaves is stupid on a few levels.

[QUOTE=John Mace]

No, I’m not. But if you want to know who might be doing that, look at who everyone in this thread is disagreeing with. Hint: it isn’t me.
[/quote]

You’re the only one calling me uptight and offended. Although I’m sure someone will defend you by chiming in with the same charge. I’m aware of the clique like atmosphere on SD.

[QUOTE=John Mace]

What type of situation? It’s a rare situation when you need to refer to someone’s race.
[/QUOTE]

Seriously, I think you’re just trying to be a ball buster at this point. Those type of situations is what was being discussed. How rare those are isn’t an issue.