Politically Correct Language to Describe People is 70% Stupid.

Great Debates
101

But they do. People from areas where high melanin content is the norm still burn and tan in the sun and fade away from it. Noticing that a particular person has a tan (or has skin that has darkened in exposure to the sun in a way that for which the ethnocentric word in our language happens to be based on a change to a specific color), is the epitome of seeing the individual and not the group. it is not true that only Europeans and their descendants have skin that changes color as the result of changes in sunlight exposure; it is only true that people who are more used to seeing the changes manifested in people like themselves will not notice such changes when manifested among other people with whom they are less familiar. (It is possible that the changes displayed on European-descended people cover a wider arc of the color spectrum, but all groups change color based on sun exposure.)

I’m not at all sure what you are objecting to in Zoe’s post.

102

Her own characterization of her own action was that she “absent mindedly” commented that one of her students had a tan. If it was a genuine thing, why the “absent minded” disclaimer? Why, in fact, is it relevant to the conversation? She’s using it as an example of how colorblind she is that she didn’t even register that the student was black. These are her words, not mine.

103

I don’t claim to be colorblind, but I have had classmates and co-workers with whom I associated long enough that I did not think of them as “black” or “Asian” or “Indian” unless the topic came up. That is what “absent-minded” indicates: looking at the person and noticing a tan without even thinking “Oh, look. They, too, get tans.”
I guess I just did not read “absent-minded” in the way you did (or understand it, now).
::: shrug :::

104

To me, your read doesn’t really explain her post.

If the girl got a tan, why is it absentminded to compliment her on it? She’s talking about it now, so she thought there was something remarkable in the exchange, something unusual. She was so X she even did Y.

105

I guess if I were in an all-white environment, and everyone in that setting fully accepted me and didn’t treat me as if I was different, I probably would evolve a kind of color-blindnes. The absence of racial diversity would remove race as a variable in social interactions. Kind of like how I don’t think about being a black person when I’m in the company of my family. So I don’t think Zoe is inaccurate when she says she didn’t notice her students’ race, jsgoddess. Although I have to admit that if someone thought my natural skin tone was a tan and I had assumed they knew I was black, I’d be like, WTH?

Not that I think the other extreme is preferable. There are times when I don’t want people to automatically see that I’m different from them, when I just want to blend in with the scenary and be monstro, not that nigger-gal monstro (I keed, I keed).

But there has to be a happy medium between “Everyone is so different that we’re like aliens to one another” and “Everyone is the same; we’re all from Africa, dude.”

106

I don’t think it’s inaccuracy so much as something else.

I’ve seen a lot of times where for something to be a positive characteristic it has to be a “white” characteristic. If it’s not white, it can’t be commented on.

Grr. I have a migraine and putting things into words is giving me fits today.

Let’s try this: It seems that a ton of white people have an idea that white is the default. Then, when anyone of any other race is nice or when we want to show our appreciation, we almost turn them into honorary white people. As if thinking of everyone as white is something generous on our parts.

Is that making any sense to ANYONE?

107

This does make sense to me and I have seen it on too many occasions. It is a sort of updated version of “She’s such a good X (for a colored).” That grinds on me, as well.

(My not seeing that in Zoe’s post does not in any way detract from the accuracy of the general observation.)

108

This is an oversimplification of the problem with sexist language, the same oversimplification that many feminists also make. It’s not, and shouldn’t be about “offending” anyone. It’s about the language establishing norms in people’s minds about the sexes. When nouns are feminized, it (generally) acts to draw attention to the fact that it is a female doing X thing, when the “norm” is male. Why is that necessary? It usually isn’t, and it perpetuates a belief that that for females to do X thing is unusual, because females don’t/shouldn’t/can’t/aren’t capable, etc. Using gender-neutral nouns bypasses this subtle but powerful contribution to the society as a whole assuming things about females that shouldn’t be assumed. (I find it curious that, excepting instances of jobs and identities that are presumed to be female to begin with, our language assumes a default of male, while the biological default is female.)

And this brings me to my point, answering what many people have mentioned in this thread: I’ll call any particular individual green eggs and ham if that’s what they want. But I’m referring to what we’re all supposed to widely agree to when an individuals preferences are not known.

This is absolutely true… up to a point. The problem is that race is too frequently brought into the conversation unnecessarily, and again, works in much the same way as I just described: if it is constantly referred to when it has no bearing, the effect is to establish “white” as the presumed norm unless something else is said, and that has a subtle, but genuine effect on how people think.

I was reading a Wikipedia article a few months ago, I don’t even remember exactly what it was about, but I was prompted to make the only contribution to it that I ever have when I read that the person I was reading about was murdered during a robbery by two “black men”. I changed it to “two men”. The fact that they were black was completely irrelevant, and citing it unnecessary. The effect of constantly hearing about “black men” committing crimes that have zero to do with their blackness reinforces negatives stereotypes that don’t need reinforcing.

109

It makes perfect sense to me, but I don’t think Zoe calling a black person’s skin tone a “tan” exemplifies this. I don’t know what it exemplifies, but I think it’s more funny than something to get worked up about.

But I have encountered what you’re talking about in action. Some white people do assume that they are “normal” and that everyone else is abnormal. A few weeks ago, I corrected a poster in GQ because he said “African” lips were exaggerated. While your average sub-saharan African’s lips are no doubt plumper than your average European, that doesn’t make them “exaggerated”–which implies that African lips are simply European lips injected with whatever Joan Rivers is addicted to. Or, when people ask, “Why do black people have such curly hair?” but they never ask why white/asian people have straight hair. It is assumed that “black” traits are deviations of the norm. (Which strikes me as a doubly annoying since we all came from African ancestors. They shouldn’t be assuming that “black” traits are derived, and yet that’s what comes naturally to many people.)

I was once told by white coworkers that my hair is “weird” because it doesn’t behave like theirs when it gets wet/humid. They didn’t know that the comment pissed me off because I didn’t say anything, and I’m sure if I had said something, they would have claimed innocence. And to be honest, they would have been. Innocent in a clueless way.

110

Interesting tidbit: in old English, “man” meant “person.” “Wer” meant “male adult”–thus words like “werewolf.”

I figure that if we want to fix the language to make it nonsexist, we can change dozens of words like mailman, chairman, anchorman, etc.–or we can go back to the Old English “wer” to refer to a male adult, and only change one word.

Daneil

111

I’ve seen this too. I also understand what you were talking about with respect to Zoe’s anecdote about her “tanned” student as well, but I agree with others in saying that that kind of thing is not that a big of a deal. What’s much more annoying is when you come across white people who express amazement that black people can even get tanned.

112

I deal occasionally with black people who make comments about all those weird-looking spots on my white skin. I patiently explain to them what freckles are. Ah, the joys of teaching second grade!

I imagine it’d be a lot more annoying if it were adults who were so ignorant about how my skin works.

Daniel

113

[hijack]Most of the people in my Black family have freckles - some are light-skinned and fairly noticeable, while others less so…

114

There’s freckles and then there’s freckles; I bet I look more like this than your family members do.

When I was a kid, I sometimes hoped my freckles would all grow together so that I could actually get a tan. I didn’t want the good looks of a tan, mind you–I just figured it’d keep me from sunburning so easily.

Daniel

115

And that was pretty much Kathy’s reaction to my comment. This was a student that I had worked with outside of school by taking her to creative writing workshops. I knew perfectly well that she was black. I’m just absentminded and the first of school is particularly busy. She came by my room to say hello and my response was off the top of my head.

jsgoddess, It would have been silly to default to white in a school which was 90 percent black. It was a combination of skin tone, eye and hair color and my own absentmindedness.

How easily you have determined that two decades in the innercity classroom was meaningless in the light of my own admittedly foolish mistake. You have put me in the white hood of my enemy. That’s an evil thing to say. I would have thought that someone in your life would have taught you better manners. Was I mistaken?

At the very hour of my graduation from high school, the Freedom Riders were on their way to Alabama. I graduated May 19, 1961, Two months later a young minister taught me to sing We Shall Overcome and Keep Your Eyes on the Prize. He was standing next to the Rev. King when he was killed.

A bomb exploded in one of the neighborhood schools the year before I volunteered to teach there. We had bomb threats all the time and for a while the teachers were made to stay to look for the bombs. You really have to want to teach to do that.

116

Just as an aside, Zoe, I’ve had the benefit of reading your posts about your years teaching and I have nothing but the highest respect for your passion and your reflections. I always look forward to reading a thread in which you participate!

117

Aw, now you’ve made me feel all better! I feel the same about your posts. Tell you what: If you give a party, I promise to concentrate on celebrating your heritage!

118

You’re mistaken about a lot, including me saying anything about you being in the KKK. In fact, I very specifically said that it was no where near that.

119

Um, Zoe, I think you’re going waaaaay overboard here and making yourself look bad in the process. She didn’t accuse you of being a racist black baby eater; she simply made an observation about something you relayed as being proof of your colorblindness.

120

I hate PC ness but actually, this thread has got me thinking about how convoluted my own rules are for addressing a person at any given time.

As a descriptor for someone I don’t know, it is whatever physical characteristic is most different from everyone else in the room. (The tall guy, goatee-guy, girl in the purple coat, asian girl, black guy.)

Again assuming I don’t know a person, then asian, black, latino, white, indian, or native american will do fine.

IMHO, you are only allowed to use a cultural/country moniker if you are from there. For example A guy from Kenya, is a Kenyan. If he prefers, he can be a Kenyan-American.

If you are directly descended from a culturally distinct group classified by country, but not from that country yourself, as long as you observe the customs and culture of the homeland you can use the term _______-American, but NOT the appelation used to describe someone from that country. For example: Nashiitashii’s mother is from Iceland, She is an Icelander, or Icelandic. Nashiitashii, was raised in Icelandic household here in america, so she is Icelandic-american. Her heritage is Icelandic, but she is NOT an Icelander. I use this rule for any group until I know someone well enough to know their preferred term.

If you are an American other than Native, and want to use a term, but DON"T share in the culture of your homelands; and have been here long enough that you are culturally exclusively American, then you are a American of ______ Descent. American is a lot easier though.

Black is good for a descriptor if you don’t know the person, and what I use if they are American culturally.