Politics, Cranick, and the Firefighters Who Let His House Burn

[Sampiro]

I’m fiscally conservative, socially liberal, and I like to set fire to things, so I’m really lost.

I mentioned in the GD thread that the fact this was a mobile home makes a difference to me, though I’ve no idea if it did to the firemen. Mobile homes go up like dry kindling and are incredibly dangerous to firemen, and by the time they arrived it would probably have been too far gone to save anything but a few possessions and the cost of extinguishing the flames would probably have exceeded the value of the property, plus the poor animals were probably already dead. Again, this may not have/probably didn’t have the slightest bearing on the firemen’s decision, but I think it is a factor to be considered.

That said, I’m hoping that they use the outrage and profile of this to think up a better alternative- property taxes or penalties perhaps that insure automatic coverage.

[lindsaybluth]

@Bosstone

The decision by the community was a bad one in that it allowed people to opt out. When it’s something like a fire that can affect property or lives other than the insured’s, opting out is really not an option. It’s why car insurance is mandatory: you can hurt others on the road, not just yourself.

Right BUT, insurance damaging another’s car is covered. If you have minimal coverage, if your shit is totaled, then you’re screwed. The firefighters were protecting the other house and lawn from damage.

@kunilou

It’s no secret that you have to sign up your home or business to be protected. It’s no secret when the dues are paid, and it’s no secret that fire departments have in the past (and will in the future) refused to serve those who don’t pay.

Yup. It’s also no secret that they will send you multiple pieces of mail reminding you that you haven’t paid, that you’ve paid in the past and probably forgotten to this time, too.

ETA:

@Sampiro

I’m fiscally conservative, socially liberal, and I like to set fire to things, so I’m really lost.

You’re always the best

[Contrapuntal]

@Sampiro

I mentioned in the GD thread that the fact this was a mobile home makes a difference to me, though I’ve no idea if it did to the firemen.

Where did you see that it was a mobile home?

[ExTank]

@TriPolar

Amazing that anybody thinks this was a proper way to act. This wasn’t insurance. This was a public service. The government shouldn’t be in the business of providing pay to play services, that’s something for the private sector.

The residents of the city of S. Fulton pay for the CITY fire dept. with their municipal taxes; the non-S.Fulton residents of Obion County can get the CITY’s service by paying a $75 fee, to cover the additional costs (fuel, maint. upkeep, etc.) of driving all over and covering the non-S. Fulton parts of Obion COUNTY.

Yes, it is a PUBLIC SERVICE. For the taxpaying citizens of the city of S. Fulton, as well as the non-S. Fulton residents of Obion county who pay the $75 fee.

Not for the entirety of Obion County.

The Obion County property taxes do not pay for a fire dept. specifically for the county residents. I’m willing to bet their property taxes are overall lower than those of S. Fulton, which may be one of the reasons people live outside the municipal limits of S. Fulton.

The GOVERNMENT of S. FULTON has NO OBLIGATION to pay for the emergency services for NON-S. FULTON residents who don’t kick into the community kitty through taxes or fees.

Do you get it now?

[Digital_Stimulus]

@Contrapuntal

Bemused.

Bemused it is then. Rather a friendly tone, right?

If you want me to understand you, you will have to tell me what you are talking about. If not, so be it.

I’m quite sure I’ve been posting in a clear manner, but too often a short blurb of text just isn’t enough to gain understanding. And that assumes I’ve adequately expressed myself, which is too often not the case. Since you ask – rather than demand I choose from limited, ill-conceived options – I’m more than willing to try again. Here’s a review of what I said, snipped for conciseness:

@Digital_Stimulus

…Objectively speaking, things went exactly as they should have.

Subjectively, if I was one of the firefighters, I couldn’t just stand there and watch the house burn…

See what I did? I said that I take no issue with how things unfolded, but that if I were personally involved I would’ve done (or at least tried to do) things differently. Then I said:

@Digital_Stimulus

Again, objectively, I have to say that the community made a group decision to have things this way. Cranick, as an individual, has now had to eat the fruit of that group decision.

It seems you reacted badly to my saying “Cranick had to eat the fruit”. I could have just as easily said “Cranick had to suck it up” or “Cranick is, unfortunately for him, now paying more than the price of pay-for-service”. Or perhaps you think that I was not assigning Cranick enough personal responsibility. No, he’s part of the community, knew how things stood, and didn’t subscribe to the service. Cranick could have paid but did not, his house burned, the firefighters watched. Objectively speaking, that’s the system that was in place; the system worked as intended. It is what it is.

However, if I were one of the firefighters, I couldn’t just stand there and watch. Thus, I’m conflicted – ambivalent. (It seems I can’t let a post go without saying that again.)

Is that clear enough? If not, could you tell me what you don’t get, 'cuz I’m missing where you’re confused…

[TriPolar]

@ExTank

The residents of the city of S. Fulton pay for the CITY fire dept. with their municipal taxes; the non-S.Fulton residents of Obion County can get the CITY’s service by paying a $75 fee, to cover the additional costs (fuel, maint. upkeep, etc.) of driving all over and covering the non-S. Fulton parts of Obion COUNTY.

Yes, it is a PUBLIC SERVICE. For the taxpaying citizens of the city of S. Fulton, as well as the non-S. Fulton residents of Obion county who pay the $75 fee.

Not for the entirety of Obion County.

The Obion County property taxes do not pay for a fire dept. specifically for the county residents. I’m willing to bet their property taxes are overall lower than those of S. Fulton, which may be one of the reasons people live outside the municipal limits of S. Fulton.

The GOVERNMENT of S. FULTON has NO OBLIGATION to pay for the emergency services for NON-S. FULTON residents who don’t kick into the community kitty through taxes or fees.

Do you get it now?

There is an obligation for all people to help in such circumstances. It is is inhuman for anyone to refuse help to someone in such need. It is ignoble for firefighters to do so. Fire departments frequently provide services to people outside of their tax base without regard to compensation.

The municipality can change their system of taxation if it is a problem. They can sue to recover costs if it is only a question of money.

What if there was a paperwork problem where a payment had been made but not recorded? What if you are behind in your taxes, should the police not bother to arrest someone who assaults you?

@Chronos

The government shouldn’t be in that business, but in this case, they were. Given that they were, I can’t fault the firefighters for acknowledging that reality.

I don’t mean to blame firefighters who may have worried about their jobs (assuming they made certain no lives were at stake). But some chief should have had the integrity to say that the fire should be put out, and other means of dealing with tax problems should be pursued.

[Markxxx]

I think they did the best they could. To me, it’s kind of like buying insurance AFTER you’ve been burglarized or after your house burned down

[Otara]

I was initially very firmly on the side of putting the fire out, but I didnt realise this was the second fire that had occurred to the person in question.

I still think a fire is inherently a danger to the community in general and shouldnt be allowed to continue, but this was idiotic in the extreme. If you’re going to play chicken you really need to understand when the other guy is in a tank and you’re on a scooter.

Otara

[Sampiro]

@Contrapuntal

@Sampiro

I mentioned in the GD thread that the fact this was a mobile home makes a difference to me, though I’ve no idea if it did to the firemen.

Where did you see that it was a mobile home?

Here among other places. You can also tell from the ruins.

[Otara]

Theres foundations and a hot water tank on the ground from what I can see?

Otara

[Sampiro]

Sorry- I meant to link directly to the video. You can tell from the shape and the ruins it was a mobile home. (When those things burn, there’s nothing left.)

[ZipperJJ]

Thought you guys might be interested in the history of fire departments:

@Wikipedia

Fire departments were again formed by insurance companies in the 18th and 19th century. Benjamin Franklin is seen as the father of the fire department in western culture[citation needed]. In 1736, he established the first fire insurance company named the Union Volunteer Fire Company in Philadelphia.[3] The city of Boston established the very first publicly funded paid fire department in America in 1679.[4]

In the late 19th century, the demand of central command for fire companies took place within cities because the fire companies would fight over fires or not put out an fire because the owners didn’t have fire insurance.[citation needed] Insured properties had plaques with the insurance company’s names affixed to their exterior called fire marks. This caused areas of a city to be badly damage by fires and caused many deaths. Cities started to form their own fire departments as a civil service to the public, forcing private fire companies to shut down, and merging their fire stations into the city’s fire department.

Not saying that today’s system isn’t better than when it began, but if the people of Obion county voted for things to work this way, then that’s how it’s got to work. The system is not unheard of in other parts of the country (see post #5) and other people get by just fine.

[ExTank]

@TriPolar

There is an obligation for all people to help in such circumstances. It is is inhuman for anyone to refuse help to someone in such need. It is ignoble for firefighters to do so.

They did help; they arrived to make sure no one was hurt, and provided fire suppression services to make sure the fire didn’t spread to adjoining properties.

@TriPolar

Fire departments frequently provide services to people outside of their tax base without regard to compensation.

Yes, they do, when there are mutual-aid agreements in place amongst various levels of governments. Obion county has opted OUT of every such attempted agreement between the county and the other 5 municipalities within Obion County which maintain fire departments.

@TriPolar

The municipality can change their system of taxation if it is a problem. They can sue to recover costs if it is only a question of money.

A municipality’s tax code has zero bearing on non-residents. The money to sue county residents has to come from somewhere; lawyers ain’t cheap. And then you get into the whole county/municipal legal pissing contests. Even if the municipalities win against the county (no sure thing, unless the case makes it to a State court), collection is a whole 'nother matter.

@TriPolar

What if there was a paperwork problem where a payment had been made but not recorded?

What if te fly had a .45? Would the froggy still fuck with him?

@TriPolar

What if you are behind in your taxes, should the police not bother to arrest someone who assaults you?

This isn’t a matter of taxes, or paying them, or not paying them; it’s a bullshit strawman from a weak-ass, losing argument. The residents of Obion county have voted to NOT pay a 13 cent per year bump on their property taxes to get a county-level coverage for fire. It was given to them to understand that, failing that tax initiative, there would be NO county-wide fire-protection.

They were further given to understand that they could voluntarily, of their own free will, ELECT into one of serveral municipal plans, for a fee. These municipalities send bills, and multiple reminders, because THEY understand the importance of having a fire department, and want to give the county residents MULTIPLE chances to opt-in.

Cranick blew them off.

I have heard time-and-again about how evil the fire department and town of S. Fulton are with their NO-Tax-Tea-Bagging-Small-Government-Libertarian fee-for-service ways; the FACT of the matter is that it is Cranick who is the best example of this meme, and its patent weakness.

The residents of S. Fulton, and Union City (County Seat), recognized the benefits of a fire department, and ELECTED, via democratic process, to enact a tax in order to fund such a service for their own municipalities.

[Steophan]

@TriPolar

There is an obligation for all people to help in such circumstances. It is is inhuman for anyone to refuse help to someone in such need. It is ignoble for firefighters to do so.

What a load of bollocks. Who are you to impose your morality on everyone else? People have certain legal obligations, which don’t include putting out fires that have nothing to do with them. Any other obligations are personal choice.
The firefighters made the right choice in this case.

[Little_Nemo]

The way I see it, Cranick had a choice about whether or not he wanted to have fire protection. He chose not to have it. As it turns out it was a bad decision.

Saving a person’s life may be a moral obligation but, in my opinion, saving property doesn’t rise to that level. I don’t see why firemen in this situation are any more obligated to put out a fire then a car mechanic is obligated to fix my car for free.

[RTFirefly]

@Chronos

I’m a liberal, and I marked that the firefighters made the best decision they could have, but I also think that the county made an absolutely terrible decision that led to that. If things were set up sanely, then the firefighting fee would be a mandatory tax, and the firefighters would be required to fight the fire.

Quoth RTFirefly:

As I understand it, Cranick offered to pay the firefighters to put out the fire.

The best option was for the firefighters to take him up on this offer. Why not? They were there, and he was apparently willing to pay their actual costs. If this is so, what principle was involved in their refusing to do so under these circumstances?

If he didn’t have cash on hand and on the spot, then for all practical purposes, he didn’t offer to pay. When the firefighters accept offers like this, more often than not, the money never materializes, and even when it does, it takes many years and much work to get it.

I didn’t realize these crazy setups had a lot of history to them. There’s actually a track record of instances where people have offered on the spot to pay for their fires to be put out, and failed to pay later on?

[RTFirefly]

@Little_Nemo

The way I see it, Cranick had a choice about whether or not he wanted to have fire protection. He chose not to have it. As it turns out it was a bad decision.

Saving a person’s life may be a moral obligation but, in my opinion, saving property doesn’t rise to that level. I don’t see why firemen in this situation are any more obligated to put out a fire then a car mechanic is obligated to fix my car for free.

While Chronos claims that the fire department was unlikely to actually collect payment in a reasonable timeframe, the fact is that Cranick did offer to pay whatever they wanted.

Sounds like it’s more like whether a car mechanic is obligated to fix your car if you bring your checkbook with you, but the mechanic doesn’t have any way of knowing whether there’s money in your account until after you pay and he tries to deposit your check.

[otternell]

I originally voted as moderate and that they should have saved the house. But more I read about the situation, and learned about the consistent refusal to pay the taxes that pay for this service, I have to change my mind. The firefighters did what they could.

I think someone else made this point elsewhere (maybe this thread, maybe a different one) but how is a firefighter any different than insurance. If you consistently choose to roll the dice, then eventually you’ll pay the price. This guy paid a pretty high price and hopefully learned his lesson.

[Shot_From_Guns]

Everyone who says that the firefighters had an obligation to help:

1.) Are you currently moving to Obion County to start a volunteer fire department? If not, why not?

2.) When was the last time you provided what you did for a living to someone who skipped out on a bill? If someone stiffed you once, did you provide the goods or services to them a second time?

3.) Why do you think that a firefighter has an obligation to risk their life to save property, when the owner of the property has so little regard for them as to refuse to pay a minimal fee for said services, even when those services have been of concrete benefit to him in the past?

[Little_Nemo]

While Chronos claims that the fire department was unlikely to actually collect payment in a reasonable timeframe, the fact is that Cranick did offer to pay whatever they wanted.

Sounds like it’s more like whether a car mechanic is obligated to fix your car if you bring your checkbook with you, but the mechanic doesn’t have any way of knowing whether there’s money in your account until after you pay and he tries to deposit your check.

Obviously we cannot say as a fact whether or not Cranick would have paid up as promised after the fire was put out. But this is a person who consistently refused to pay $75 for fire protection. It’s not unreasonable to regard him as a risk for not paying a $3000 bill for fire protection.