Another question… the Orange Order was basically celebrating the victory of the English over the Irish at some point, was it not?
I remember reading that fifty years ago, the Orange Parade was a major festival in Toronto, of the same magnitude as the Santa Claus Parade, but now it’s pretty much forgotten.
ISTR that there have been Orange Parades in recent years but they attracted groups of maybe a hundred supporters. (Compare Caribana, with maybe a million, or even Diwali, with several thousands.)
[QUOTE=Struan]
They aren’t the brightest of people. Rangers and Celtic have been trying for years to stamp out the sectarian element amongst the fans (and to be fair, the bulk of both supports are decent people for whom it’s only a game) but there are a handful of towns and suburbs in the west of Scotland that appear to be stuck in 1690.
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I would agree completely that the clubs themselves are largely blameless in this matter. The situation in Glasgow is pretty clearly understood and wearing regalia from either team is pretty much a no-no outside of match days in polite company. Many pubs in Glasgow city centre will not allow people in wearing Rangers or Celtic gear. Within Glasgow the situation is understood as being an excuse for idiots on both sides to have a fight.
The situation in Ireland however is completely different. Here it is assumed that you are a Celtic fan from birth (whether or not you’ve ever been to Glasgow) and the inbuilt sectarianism is quite blatant and unapologetic even amongst otherwise sane people. I personally believe this to primarily be because they have never in their lives been challenged on it and haven’t examined their behaviour as a result.
The situation in Ireland however is completely different. Here it is assumed that you are a Celtic fan from birth (whether or not you’ve ever been to Glasgow) and the inbuilt sectarianism is quite blatant and unapologetic even amongst otherwise sane people. I personally believe this to primarily be because they have never in their lives been challenged on it and haven’t examined their behaviour as a result.
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I must admit that on my one visit to Ireland I saw far more Man U tops than Celtic ones, but I get your point. I think that wearing the wrong colours in, say, Larkhall or Croy in Scotland would be a stupid idea. It’s not because the extremists haven’t been called on their behaviour, but as their opinions have become marginalised a siege mentality has developed, unfortunately.
[QUOTE=Sunspace]
Another question… the Orange Order was basically celebrating the victory of the English over the Irish at some point, was it not?
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Well no, it was the Dutch* over the English**. They just happened to end up in Ireland to fight their battle.
*Protestant and claimant to the British throne.
**Catholic former incumbent of the British throne.
[QUOTE=Struan]
Yes and no - the Orange Order celebrates the Battle of the Boyne and it’s quite a tangle of political and religious affiliations.
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Wow. That’s even more complicated than I thought. Thanks!
:: following links ::
Interesting. The Orange Order was much more influential than I thought in early Canada. I guess that explains the town of Orangeville, northwest of Toronto (I always thought it was a little too far north for citrus fruit).
[QUOTE=counsel wolf]
I would agree completely that the clubs themselves are largely blameless in this matter. The situation in Glasgow is pretty clearly understood and wearing regalia from either team is pretty much a no-no outside of match days in polite company. Many pubs in Glasgow city centre will not allow people in wearing Rangers or Celtic gear. Within Glasgow the situation is understood as being an excuse for idiots on both sides to have a fight.
The situation in Ireland however is completely different. Here it is assumed that you are a Celtic fan from birth (whether or not you’ve ever been to Glasgow) and the inbuilt sectarianism is quite blatant and unapologetic even amongst otherwise sane people. I personally believe this to primarily be because they have never in their lives been challenged on it and haven’t examined their behaviour as a result.
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I’ve found this site quite enlightening about “the situation in Glasgow.” With a bit of humor/humour…
[QUOTE=jjimm]
I believe (this is only Nationalist hearsay, mind), that in past times it was only illegal to fly the tricolour if it “caused offense”. Often, the person who was “offended” was a passing police officer (since most of the Royal Ulster Constabulary at the time were from the Unionist population, due in turn to the requirement of the police to swear an oath to the British Queen, something nationalists were unwilling to do), who was in an ideal position to do something about the “offense” s/he was being caused.
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My dad (from NI) used to tell the story (even wrote a ballad about it) of his older brothers and their peers who used to fly a tricolour in their area every St. Patrick’s Day. The local constabulary would come and take the flag down and tried to apprehend the people responsible but none of them were ever caught.
This would have been in either the late 1940s or early 1950s.
I went to a Rangers game once - scary stuff. It’s funny, in a weird way - the clubs put lyrics to specially written songs up on the big screens for the fans to sing along to, so they don’t start off with their sectarian songs. If I didn’t live in Scotland, I’d have a hard time grasping how bitter the rivalry is.
[QUOTE=Sunspace]
Incidentally, the St George cross is a neutral alternative in Canada, useful when indicating languages. We use it to indicate English, and the French tricolour to indicate French, as those are the originating countries of the languages.
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I seem to remember seeing this, but in all fairness I see the union flag – or the American flag – used to indicate English much more often. I don’t think a majority of people here would recognize St. George’s cross anyway.
If only it were just flags…
There is also bunting, painted kerb stones and painted lamp posts.
I live down the road from a large banner proclaiming “The Protestant Boys of East Belfast”, just that, no verbs, no qualifiers. I think they’re just staking their claim.
My father describes the whole thing as “a public pissing contest”. Judge for yourself.
[QUOTE=Captain Socks]
What kind of sectarian songs did they sing?
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Well, for one example chosen for its banality and pointlessness, ‘Simply the Best’ can be a sectarian song. Just sing ‘fuck the Pope and the IRA’ to the instrumental melody between the first two lines.
[QUOTE=Captain Socks]
What kind of sectarian songs did they sing?
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Well there’s sectarian and there’s sectarian. Rangers fans aren’t allowed to sing Billy Boys any more, and largely don’t (possibly “We’re up to our knees in Fenian blood, surrender or you’ll die” offended somebody.). Other songs are The Sash and Derry’s Walls.