Nonbeliever, raised Christian. I prayed and prayed for God to reveal Himself to me. There was a long period in my life where I wanted it more than anything else. A flash of light would have been great, but by the time I was done trying (talking about years here), I would have settled even for a feeling. I spent years assuming my prayers went unanswered because I didn’t have enough faith, or because I masturbated.
It’s interesting to compare these responses with those of practicing Christians who are endlessly fond of sharing how God “answers” their own prayers, every single time. Probably says something about how some people are less susceptible to confirmation bias, I’m guessing.
Has anyone else here ever prayed to God and believed they received an answer, only to finally figure out, years later, that it wasn’t an answer after all?
Being derisive of, or angry at, a particular religion … or contemptuous of it’s adherents, is analogous to hating the country United States of America and it’s citizens because there are dishonest and unethical politicians, ridiculous laws, and some of the 18th century wording of the Bill of Rights or Constitution seems sexist or racist … or because that county’s government made some dire mistakes in the past (Slavery, I’m looking at you).
I don’t expect the oral traditions and ancient scriptures of warlike Bronze Age nomads or Roman occupied 1st century Middle-Eastern freedom-fighters to reflect a particularly altruistic, passive, or Politically Correct Deity. There is plenty of wisdom, beauty, and pacifism mixed into the Old and New Testaments, considering the cultures of the tribes that produced (or borrowed) those beliefs. You sort of have to read between the lines and consider the context of the people who generated the scriptures and canon.
And yet, as a representative democracy,American citizens are responsible for electing to office those dishonest politicians, so by extension they are indeed responsible for the actions of their government. Granted, people may not have known how awful certain individuals like, say G.W.B. (only using him as an example) the first time he was elected, but by turning a blind eye to his administration’s actions in the Middle East, and his inept handling of the so-called War on Terror, it’s perfectly acceptable to hold accountable those who re-elected him and his cronies. (As the saying goes, “Fool me once…”)
I bear no ill will towards the people who originally wrote the Bible, no matter how backwards they seem today. It’s the people who adhere to those outdated, sexist, patently racist belief systems that I take umbrage with – especially when they invoke religious dogma as a method of control, not faith.
BTW
Deuteronomy 6:16 - “Do not put the LORD your God to the test as you did at Massah.”
Matthew 4:7 - "Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”
Luke 4:12 - "Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”
When I was a believer I prayed hard, a lot. Nothing happened, and now I believe in nothing and would not pray unless a gun was to my head.
You ask non-believers to pray, how about you as a believer quit praying? I’m betting nothing changes.
It’'s like having blind faith that I deposited a million dollars in your bank account.
I’m severely agnostic, to the point of atheism. And I’ve tried to believe. I really have. I issued my own personal challenge to God once.
I said that, if He wanted me to believe in Him, He would appear before me in a form that I would recognize as divine. He never did, which led me to the following
-Either He doesn’t exist, or
- He doesn’t care enough about me for me to bother with Him.
For the record, I’ve dated or married people who come from religious families, and they’ve tried to tell me that God doesn’t work that way. I don’t buy it.
And the question any skeptic should ask him/herself is…why? If God exists, why would “putting him to the test” not be allowed? Best answer is – He doesn’t exist. There isn’t even a man behind the curtain.
That’s the nice thing about science. Any time you mix calcium carbonate with water & CO[sub]2[/sub], you’ll get Ca(HCO[sub]3[/sub])[sub]2[/sub] every single time. None of this nonsense about molecules refusing to bond because you lack faith.
But what about the story where Satan is tempting Jesus and Jesus says “do not put the Lord to the test”? Surely God had some power in that story… after all in other parts of the gospels God performs a lot of miracles.
Or that this universe is governed by laws. What difference does it make if it’s a God or the laws of physics? Either way, why would it care what you think? It’s not going to recreate itself just because people whine and cry about it. It’s not your mother.
The universe is a mechanism. Designed or not, the “creating” is done. It’s over. It’s all automatic and brilliant and perfect. You can go along willingly or you can be dragged kicking and screaming but, like it or not, you’re going. You can stand in defiance and get steam rolled or you can ride it and have the time of your life.
Everything is exactly as it should be. Everything is the only way it ***can ***be. You don’t exist outside this universe nor outside the jurisdiction of the laws that govern it. You just don’t. Nor are you qualified to dictate to - or even judge - any part of it.
Fighting it is pointless. It’s like spitting into the wind because if you believe you’re here to “fix” things, then all you’re going to see of it is your own personal version of “broken” shit. If that’s what you’re doing, then that’s what you’re gonna see when you look at it. You’re not baking bread if you’re changing the oil in your car. You don’t shut the hood of your car and trot to the back expecting a fresh loaf of bread to fall out of the exhaust pipe.
John Clay, you keep referencing passages from Scripture as your argument that non-believers should consider asking the Deity of those Scriptures for revelation of its existence (and incidentally, of the validity of those Scriptures, whose validity they already REJECT).
Are you SURE you don’t see something circular in this approach?
kaylasdad99:
Psalms 10 and 22 say that even for famous believers from the Bible, God sometimes seems hidden from them.
“there is the story of Job where Satan asked God if he could make Job suffer to see how strong Job’s faith was.” (i.e. God is not necessarily helping you out)
Deuteronomy 6:16 - “Do not put the LORD your God to the test as you did at Massah.”
Matthew 4:7 - "Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”
Luke 4:12 - "Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”
“But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul.” (i.e. it is hard to get an answer from God)
What those verses are saying that based on the Bible, it isn’t surprising that prayers to God to prove his existence won’t be answered.
I don’t recall saying that people should pray hard to God to reveal his existence. After all I haven’t done it myself.
No, you haven’t said they should, but right from the start, you’ve been working on persuading them that they should consider doing so, first by making reference to some generic “some Christians believe” language about Hell and eternal damnation, and the desirability of avoiding those things. Later, you begon quoting passages in earnest, and in post 24, you say that the prime reason you don’t beg for revelation yourself is because you’re afraid you might GET it.
In your last post, you use Scripture again, to suggest why such a plea might be imeffective. Again, it is circular reasoning to resort to Scripture in deciding one way or the other whether to pray about it.
But what about the story where Harry Potter spoke to serpents in their language? What about the story where Harry Potter revealed his D.A.D.A. professor to be an imposter? What about the story where some bi-curious hobbit went on a mission to throw a piece of jewelry into a volcano, but at the last minute, failed?
And 2 Chronicles 15:11 says: “At that time they sacrificed to the Lord seven hundred head of cattle and seven thousand sheep and goats from the plunder they had brought back.” Granted, I don’t have any clue what that means, but if you’re gonna quote randomly from the Bible, two can play at that game. //rolleyes//
Well, they’re right. God doesn’t work that way, as you proved. Now, whether you proved much of significance with this particular experiment is another question. However, the fact that you tried to believe and failed might be more significant.
Beside the point, except to some posts here like the one above. More to the point:
When you quoted this, and with your quotes above, you make the valid argument that we can’t just do an acid test and expect it to work. But if we search for him with all our heart and find him not, that speaks volumes. If nothing else, it reveals this verse to be inaccurate. Either that or “we did it wrong” but don’t expect to convince anyone with an answer like that.
No, everything is exactly as it is. I get to choose how I feel it should be, and do whatever’s in my power to try to make it that way. You speak as though this is doomed to failure, but it’s worked quite well in my life, 56 years in.
How things should be is not a matter of fact, but of opinion based on personal values. I claim my right to have an opinion, to assert that my values matter to me, and to work within my sphere of influence to make things as they should be as much as it’s in my power and desire to do so. If I see someone snatch a purse and start to run past me, I can say “That’s how it should be” or I can grab the purse (or whatever I choose to do.)
I used to when I was a lot younger. Then I found out the truth and quit praying.
You have inspired me to make a human sacrifice to the Hindu goddess Kali, just in case it turns out to be true.
Sure, and vice versa. That’s why I hold my beliefs as “works in progress” rather than as fundamentals. I could be wrong about just about anything I believe. I’ve been dead wrong about much simpler things than “the meaning of life and everything,” so I sure wouldn’t claim any kind of certainty about that!
How about you? Have you believed in things only to find them false?
Yes in high school I believed the universe was only a few thousand years old.