Polling is broken, right? Or is it the news? Or all of the US?

And here I agree. The range of outcomes reasonably likely by the polls includes my belief that Trump will again not break 47%, and that Harris will be 51% or greater. It includes her sweeping the swing states.

I agree with your take on measures of voter enthusiasm.

I think the polling houses models of the electorate are overcorrected for the error in the last two Trump elections.

I believe that Trump has made polling inroads with specifically groups who are less likely to vote (young males, especially Black and Hispanic young males) while Harris has grown support in more likely to vote cohorts (especially more highly educated and women)

I think some of Trump’s older voters have died off and more of the older voters were younger when they voted in 2016 and 2020. 70 year old Boomer women are not happy with Trump even if they leaned to him before. And some are righteously pissed.

I think his final argument pushed off some to no longer bother to vote for him and some to come out to vote against him who might otherwise have stayed home.

I therefore place my marker on that side of the range polls predict are reasonably likely.

But I wouldn’t place it far outside of that range.

That’s more or less my prediction as well.

Or to look at it from a slightly different angle… if I look at every single data point or argument or theory or reasonable prognostication or poll I can, some of those data points say it’s very close. And some say that Harris will fairly easily win. NONE say that Trump will easily win. Doesn’t make me confident… and I’m still basically not sleeping well and stressed out and miserable yada yada yada.

But I genuinely believe Harris will win, and I think it will be much less close than 2020.

Just to clarify, most say that Trump could very easily win by a lot (in the Electoral College) – as could Harris. None say “will” anything. This isn’t Nostradamus. :slight_smile:

Smapti overstates things and is too dismissive of the narrow utility of aggregates and models in a tight race, but I actually agree with them that I find myself wasting too much time checking the FiveThirtyEight model (51% of runs today for Trump? 54% for Harris last week? etc.). As I’ve said before, it’s a nervous habit, but a forgivable one, since we’re ALL nervous now, and NO ONE knows what will happen, so some of us are clinging to crumbs to feed our emotional cravings. No reason to get huffy about it.

And…FiveThirtyEight’s podcasts (and short website articles) are excellent. Don’t throw that baby out with the bathwater! The usual staff, plus the guest speakers, provide good info and analysis of themes like GenZ voters, Latino voters, gerrymandering, referenda, downballot races, comparing to trends outside the US, attitudes about democracy, threats to local election officials, and much more. They did one or two podcasts a week for the last couple months, and are up to three a week for this final stretch.

(Per Aspenglow’s moderation, I’m bringing this discussion over to this thread from the Kamala run-up thread.)

Christopher Bouzy’s final Electoral College prediction came out yesterday evening (map below). Now, I know Bouzy weighs and scores his inputs far differently than more famous aggregators like FiveThirtyEight, Nate Silver, and the NYT’s Nate Cohn. Additionally, Bouzy’s analysis isn’t strictly poll-based. Still, I’m interested to see another “minority report” among the wide swath of prognosticators.

One of the strikes, perhaps, against Bouzy’s work is that very little of his analysis is given in printed form. Instead, he delivers his work via podcast and similar oral presentations. I’ve not even been able to dig up a transcript anywhere. Therefore, information about Bouzy’s analysis tends to spread across various liberal channels via the electronic analog of “word of mouth” – for example, I found out about Bouzy from the Comments sections of some liberal Substacks. Were I on social media, I’d probably have run across him somewhere in someone’s Facebook comments, or someone uploading one of Bouzy’s maps to Instagram or something like that.

Further exacerbating the lack of printed analysis, yesterday’s (Wed 10/30) podcast detailing Bouzy’s Electoral College final-map analysis had some kind of snafu that silenced the audio about 1/4 of the way in. To that point, Bouzy had been beating around the bush a bit and had really only said that early voting modeling wasn’t going to be particularly indicative of final general election results (FWIW, an opinion he shares with Nate Silver).

Bouzy does have a prior podcast from mid-September (72 minutes) that goes through his reasoning for his provisional seven-weeks-out electoral map (succinctly: Harris wins all seven swing states plus Florida, Ohio and Iowa too close to call at the time). Presumably, his reasoning to predict Harris sweeping the battlegrounds + Florida was given during his September podcast (disclosure: I have not listened to it).

So, alright. In the Kamala run-up thread, @Win_Place_Show reasonably asked me this (my emphasis):

Not to take away from the “is polling broken” conversation, but can you let us know, is there any reason why we should trust this Bouzy guy over any of the other prognosticators that have it “too close to call”?

My answer is that, no, there probably isn’t a purely logical reason to trust Bouzy (or, say, Carl Allen) over the bigger names such as Nate Silver or G. Elliot Morris. I can explain why I look to alternatives to the big names, however.

For one, not mere polling but prognostication – even prediction – is necessarily an inexact exercise. The analyses out there cover a wider gamut than the big names alone suggest. Not being in line with Silver or FiveThirtyEight doesn’t necessarily mean “it’s off somehow”. I think other researchers and analysts can start with the publicly available polling data, add in a boutique set of weights and factors (which all of the prognosticators do) and draw reasonable and valid conclusions that differ from the highest-profile analyses. And I want to see such conclusions, not merely another one saying “yeah, I think it’s a toss-up, too.

Secondly, while I’ve never performed a deep-dive into Bouzy’s analysis** … most of Silver’s and Morris’ analysis is also a black box to me as well. I don’t hold having a low profile against Bouzy and, say, Allen. Through intermediaries, I have been able to latch on to superficial pieces of Bouzy’s reasoning and indeed agree with much of it (e.g. that the Florida and Arizona referenda will significantly impact turnout to Harris’ favor) – so the presentation of his maps, for me, is not completely inscrutable.

Lastly, I must cop to some motivated reasoning. I want to believe that Trump’s victory is not pre-ordained. And while Silver and Morris would say “We’re not saying THAT” … if someone can’t come out and at least say “Harris is in good shape,” what’s the alternative? Refusal to make a pass/fail prediction is not particularly palatable – give me the Alan Lichtmans and Christopher Bouzys who are willing to stand out on that ledge. That at least gives something to believe in.

** On the other hand, I have snorkeled a bit into Carl Allen’s.

Psst … @Smapti , @TeroSunbear … over here! Taking it away from the Kamala run-up thread. Don’t want you all getting in trouble over there :sweat_smile:

@RickJay , taking it over here per Aspenglow’s instruction. You just posted in the Harris run-up thread:

In July, Bouzy confidently predicted that if Biden dropped out of the race, Trump would easily win, 327-211. As he based this prediction on, as near as I can tell, no actual objective evidence at all, I am dubious of his methods.

I know that Bouzy was highly skeptical of a then-unknown replacement Democratic candidate during the weeks immediately after the June Trump-Biden debate. When Harris caught fire in August, Bouzy just adjusted his priors in response to new information (that the Democratic party quickly got behind Harris).

I am looking for one of Bouzy’s summer maps that shows that particular Trump advantage. I expect that it’s out there, and I believe I understand the thinking that went into that map (broadly, that Trump would sweep Candidate X in the battlegrounds and take another purplish state besides).

They are pretty straightforward about what the methods they each use are. I don’t need to see the exact weighting to understand what their process is. WaPo’s differing criteria for being much more selective about which polls get included and having less recency weighting is also clearly explained. RCP is even straightforward so we can understand why their result is complete crap.

If someone is doing aggregation and coming up with a polling based forecast very much different than the others it behooves them to explain their methods well enough for us to understand the basis for their divergent results. It may be a reasonable rationale. It may just be that he has a gut feeling and throws out all polls that don’t fit the result he expects. A brief explanation is all I’d ask for.

Bouzy is supposed to re-post or re-do last night’s podcast (the 10/30 one that cut off 1/4 of the way in). I’ll be on the lookout. I’m not a podcast guy, but Bouzy doesn’t commit his takes to print … so since I’m interested, I have to make time to listen.

The highest profile ones go to polls only by this point.

The added value stuff is what every pundit, including all of us armchair ones here, add.

Can you give me a quick elevator-pitch on what you mean by theirs being “complete crap”? I’m currently seeing their site cited across Facebook MAGAland, presumably because they’re showing the “Trumpiest results” at this point.

And thank you to borderlond for the deep dive into Bouzy’s methodology and background.

I don’t think they filter out or weight based on pollster. So you could have an operation paid for by Elon Musk polling 100 voters in the most conservative Michigan counties saying Trump is up 65-35, and they’ll just plunk it into their average with an equal weight to, say a Marist College or NYT poll.

They throw every piece of shit into the average with no weighting for partisan polling intended to flood the zone, size, quality, historical bias even unintended, etc.

When the hysteria about the flooding with numerous Red sponsored garbage polls is raised generally the RCP average is what gets cited.

Continuing the discussion from Stop Panicking!:

Nope. It is the middle point of a wide variety of outcomes congruent with the available evidence from one to the other sweeping the swing states.

Probably a relatively not so close race is more congruent than there being one. Adding both directions as equally possible.

I saw a great Xweet a few weeks ago:

“As of now, Nate Silver has Trump with a 48% chance of winning, while betting markets have him at 52%. After the election, people on the internet will be gleefully declaring that one of them has been proven to be completely idiotic”.

And the idiots will thereby be…those same “people on the Internet.”

I just saw this rather depressing Marist poll of North Carolina, which predicts a Trump win.

But there is a silver lining……maybe……although I’m not really sure what it means for the race.

From the results

Harris (55%) is +12 points over Trump (43%) among voters who say they have already cast their ballot. Trump (53%) is ahead of Harris (45%) among likely voters who have yet to.

Probably just that more Democrats vote by mail, but that’s a pretty hefty advantage. I hope those likely Trump voters don’t make it to the polls.

So… how many people have already voted?

“A lot in the Electoral College” is, by historical standards, not gonna happen. An outcome like 320-218 - realistically, the best Harris is likely to do, where she wins all swing states and NE-1 - isn’t actually a lot; in percentage terms that would be much more narrow than most Presidential elections.

If we just go back to 1900 because I’m lazy, there have been 32 elections. Of those, only

1916 (Wilson 277, Hughes 254)
1976 (Carter 297, Ford 240)
2000 (Supreme Court 271, Gore 266)
2004 (Bush 286, Kerry 251)

were closer than 2020. (2016 was damn near as close. 1960 is remembered as being close and it was in popular vote but Kennedy won by a few more EVs than Biden.) Most were blowouts; whole generations went by with no Presidential election in doubt. From 1920 to 1944, the winner never won by fewer than 246 EVs. There was no doubt, at all, who was going to win.

There just aren’t as many swing votes now. The idea of a candidate winning by twenty points, which LBJ and Nixon and FDR all did, and Reagan and Hoover only barely missed, is just incomprehensible now. Ten points seems impossible. Obama won by 7.2, and we now consider that a lopsided contest.

(Coolidge won by over 25, but that was a three-way race; the third party candidate, Robert La Follette, got almost 19 percent and won Wisconsin.)

Counts vary a bit, but one of the main sources for early voting data has it just over 55 million as of today.

For NC

On October 24, when the poll was dated, a little over two million, or about 26% of registered voters. But that number doesn’t include people whose mail-in ballots weren’t yet received and counted, so the percentage of respondents that said they’d already voted might be a little higher.

According to this Oct 24th press release, that 2 million+ number is almost all in-person early voters…almost 1.9 million. The total as of that day only included about 120K mail ballots so I’m guessing there were lots of ballots that had been mailed but hadn’t yet been received or processed.

North Carolina Tops 2 Million Ballots Cast in 2024 Election | NCSBE

In 2020, NC vote totals were a little over 5.5 million.