Polyamorous couples with kids

In My Humble Opinion
61

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]

So this new guy is now a parent? How so? Fiat? Double Secret PolyNoTakeBacks?
[/QUOTE]

In much the same way the new guy would be the kid’s parent if mom and dad had gotten divorced, and mom had married new guy.

My son (from a previous marriage) has two moms, and two dads. Please explain how this is different from a poly situation, other than the fact of two households.

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]

They don’t need her input. They need her permission. As I said, if my parents had pulled this shit on me I would have been out of there.
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So if mom and dad get divorced, mom needs permission from junior before she can remarry? I don’t recall my parents asking me for permission for them to divorce- do people do things differently in your world?

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]

I don’t care one way or another what consenting adults do with their sex lives.

[/QUOTE]

Obviously, you do.

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]

Children change the equation. If you think that a nine year old and an eleven year old are knowledgable and mature enough to hold their own in a discussion of this magnitude then I suggest that you have an eccentric grasp on things. Was “no” one of her options? If not, it was not a negotioation, or a discussion. It was an executive order.
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I didn’t ask my son if I could get a divorce. I didn’t ask him if I could remarry. I didn’t ask him if I could move halfway across the country. It’s not a negotiation, or a discussion- almost everything a parent does is an “executive order”. It’s kind of in the job description.

I’m not in a poly relationship, but I have quite a few friends who are. They’re a lot more openminded and accepting of others than you seem to be.

You seem to be very against anything which puts a child into a non-traditional family. What are your thoughts on divorce? How about same-sex marriage?

62

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
You can discuss something without giving a child a say in the ultimate decision. 90% of what a parent does is an executive order. Not everything we do makes our children happy, monogamous or not.
[/QUOTE]
Define “discuss something.”

What I have found enlightening in this thread is the tendency for folks to equivocate. Whether or not baby gets an additional daddy at age 11 seems to be on a par with where the family will go for Thanksgiving. Divorce is relegated to a lifestyle choice. If the parents want a couple of fuck buddies, what business is it of the children? Hey, we’re all just tryin’ to get by, right?

[QUOTE=Lightin’]
In much the same way the new guy would be the kid’s parent if mom and dad had gotten divorced, and mom had married new guy.
[/QUOTE]
This what I’m talking about. ‘Getting a divorce’ is bandied about as if it were just something that happened. A monolithic, one size fits all description of the way things are. As if one could say “I’m divorced” and everyone would know exactly what happened to cause it. Just a personal choice, ya know?

When the false comparison of poly lifestyle to divorce first entered this thread, I asked for a description of this divorce. No one has favored me with a reply. You just keep beating that divorce drum.

I will assume, for the sake of argument, that the divorcing couple entered into the marriage contract in good faith, and with every intention to fulfill it. I will further assume that every attempt to save the marriage was made, and that the divorce decree contained a custody arangement that was amenable to all sides.

In this case, no, the kid does not get to decide whether the divorce occurs, or whether the custodial spouse gets to re-marry, or to whom. Divorce is, in my opinion, or my vote, (do I still get a vote?) a catastrophic solution to a problem that has no other solution. Everyone agrees that the interests of everyone are best served by severing the union.

I cannot see that inviting another person into the marriage bed, and vesting that person with all parental rights and privileges, for the purpose of enhancing the adults’ relationship, to be remotely on a par with divorce. Divorce is necessary major surgery. Adding another adult to the equation is cosmetic elective surgery at best

Humor me. Point out to me what is so obvious to you.

I am very against anything that sacrifices the needs of the child to the needs of the parents. As to my thoughts on divorce, see above. As to same sex marriage, I fully support it and wish that it were the law of the land.

63

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
I cannot see that inviting another person into the marriage bed, and vesting that person with all parental rights and privileges, for the purpose of enhancing the adults’ relationship, to be remotely on a par with divorce.
[/QUOTE]
Why do you assume that it’s only to enhance the adults’ relationships, and has nothing to do with the stability of the family as a whole?

Do you honestly think that another person was brought into the household just because another warm body was needed for sex?

64

[QUOTE=Hamadryad]
Why do you assume that it’s only to enhance the adults’ relationships, and has nothing to do with the stability of the family as a whole?
[/QUOTE]
I suppose it’s because extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It is not inherently obvious, nor has it been asserted, that stabilizing the family is the reason for such a decision.

I think that sex is an essential element of it. Two friends of mine took in the children of the sister of one of them, when said sister was unable to care for them, because of her substance abuse problems. My two friends are lesbians in a committed relationship. They asked me to pitch in as a male role model. I helped one kid out with Scout projects, served as the adult in charge for the other kid’s Cub scout troop (I took him to meetings, etc.) rode bikes, shot hoops, counseled them through rough patches at school, and whatnot. Sex never entered the picture. I was, and still am, very attracted to one of the women. She is bi-sexual. Theoretically, sex between us is a possibility, yet it was never a condition of my support for those kids.

The needs of the children supersede the needs of the parents.

65

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]

In this case, no, the kid does not get to decide whether the divorce occurs, or whether the custodial spouse gets to re-marry, or to whom.
[/QUOTE]

The cause of the divorce isn’t important. We’re not talking about the causative situation of the divorce. It doesn’t matter, since we’re not talking about it. Divorce happens, and will continue to happen, for reasons as petty as “I’m bored.” If you feel that divorce is too easy to achieve, start a thread on that subject.

The point that I was trying to get across is that after the divorce, life doesn’t stop. The two previously married people are now unmarried, and are free to remarry. If each of them remarry, the child now has two mothers and two fathers. In what way is this different from a polyamorous (or “group marriage”) situation? The child still has to deal with four adults, each with an equal (more or less) say in his life.

A child of divorce has a much more traumatic causative event- his parents didn’t want each other any longer (for whatever reason), and the household was forcibly severed. A child in a group marriage situation has been put in his position because his “parents” (biological and otherwise) love each other enough to get “married”.

Why is a divorce situation preferable to a group marriage situation? Or are you saying that divorced parents can never remarry?

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]

Divorce is, in my opinion, or my vote, (do I still get a vote?) a catastrophic solution to a problem that has no other solution. Everyone agrees that the interests of everyone are best served by severing the union.
[/QUOTE]

Oh, stop it with the “do I get a vote?” nonsense.

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]

I cannot see that inviting another person into the marriage bed, and vesting that person with all parental rights and privileges, for the purpose of enhancing the adults’ relationship, to be remotely on a par with divorce. Divorce is necessary major surgery. Adding another adult to the equation is cosmetic elective surgery at bestHumor me. Point out to me what is so obvious to you.I am very against anything that sacrifices the needs of the child to the needs of the parents. As to my thoughts on divorce, see above. As to same sex marriage, I fully support it and wish that it were the law of the land.
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Divorce as necessary surgery? Like it or not, divorce isn’t always necessary- divorce can be cosmetic surgery as well. If you disapprove of polyamory strictly because it’s not a necessary form of marriage, then perhaps a thread on the ease of which divorce is granted in today’s society would be in order as well. In my opinion, a blended family is a blended family is a blended family- a child of divorce has just as many parents as a child of group marriage.

Hey, here’s a question- what if they HAD asked the kid for permission to bring another adult into the household, and if the kid had said, “Sure!”? Would you still be against polyamory, or is there now some other reason why you don’t like it?

I know that I, for one, would’ve preferred to be the child of a loving polyamorous family… instead of the child of a loveless divorced-and-remarried situation.

66

[QUOTE=Lightnin’]
The cause of the divorce isn’t important. We’re not talking about the causative situation of the divorce. It doesn’t matter, since we’re not talking about it.
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For the eleventy-seventh time, I’m not the one who brought divorce to the party. Your quarrel is not with me.

Anyone with children who divorces because he/she is bored is undeserving of the status of parent.

If you like grasshopper pie, click your heels and drink a cup of flopsweat.

Who said it did?

Really. The woman my father re-married is as much a mother to me as the woman who gave me birth? Only for increasingly ambiguous values for ‘mother.’

Are they all living in the same house? You need to give me more details. Garbage in, garbage out.

Interesting use of quotes. Lets add “love” and “household.”

Who said it was. For the eleventy-seventy-first time, I am not the one who brought up divorce. Build that strawman on someone else’s porch, if you please.

This is just sad. Where did this come from?

I was told that I don’t get a vote. Once again, your quarrel is with someone else.

Who said I was against it? What I am against is sacrificing the needs of the child to the pleasures of the parents.

False dichotomy. Are those the only two choices? I would have preferred to have been the child of an incredibly wealthy humanitarian genius, rather than the child of regular old lower middle class drones.

67

Contrapuntal, I’m done trying to argue with you. You’re either being deliberately dense, or… hell, I can’t think of anything charitable to say. Have fun with the thread, dude. :rolleyes:

68

While I originally looked forward to learning how people dealt with the situation of polymory and children with I was hoping some input as to how to deal with it when you let your parents know. Now I am just kind of disgusted and see this part of it as completely sidetracked by someone attacking the ‘Parenting” issue to disguise what I feel is the disdain they feel for anyone that lives in a non traditional role.

The parenting issue is simple. It is the decision of all of the adults how much parenting the new person in the household does. This includes what area and limits they have in parenting. This is the same thing that holds true for any new adult coming into any household with a parent and child(ren). I have been a step father and a live in boyfriend of a woman with a child. In both cases the areas that I had parental authority in were defined before the relationship moved forward. As a stepfather the areas were very broad however there were still limits (some medical questions and such should be decided by the biological parents I feel) . As the live in boyfriend my authority was by proxy. (you have to do what I say because your mom says you have to do what I say) and was limited and discussed before we moved in.

I wrote all of this to say. WHO ARE YOU TO SAY IT IS WRONG TO SHARE PARENTING WITH OTHERS? Anyone who hires a nanny is evil? Better not hire a babysitter or if you do better always carry a cell phone because you don’t give them any discipline power they can’t do anything and your children may be in danger.

Most of the country no longer has neighborhoods in which to raise a child. There are not the people right around the corner that can look out for them. If someone is in a poly relationship and the family ends up with more than two adults living in the house splitting up the work how can this be a bad thing. It gives all of the adults more time to focus on enjoying their family.

69

I find threads like this absolutely fascinating.
Are there any good books ( fiction and nonfiction) out there on this particular subject?

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[QUOTE=Tannim]
While I originally looked forward to learning how people dealt with the situation of polymory and children with I was hoping some input as to how to deal with it when you let your parents know.
[/QUOTE]

“Your parents” = grandparents of the hypothetical children in question?

I know my boyfriend has had a few conversations with his mother that included sentences like, “Are you intending to have children? What if they’re with That Woman?” which irritates him, because he’s informed her several times (and well before resuming being actively poly) that he’s not thinking about having children before he gets his life in order. She also has a distinct objection to the concept of raising children in a multi-adult family that doesn’t seem to be rooted in anything other than moral condemnation (I haven’t spoken to her, so I only get what’s reported to me, but I’ve not had any substantial arguments reported to me). I’m filing this all as “Something that will probably need to be dealt with eventually, not currently my problem.”

Frankly, my personal preference is to be out of the closet in general, and definitely before my children are in the picture; if my parents, one of my partners’ parents, or some other set of parents are going to potentially try to disrupt my family, I would rather know before there are children they can threaten so I can set up protection in advance. I’m aware that people with kids already don’t have that option; that’s just not where I’m starting from.

71

[QUOTE=Tannim]
While I originally looked forward to learning how people dealt with the situation of polymory and children with I was hoping some input as to how to deal with it when you let your parents know.
[/QUOTE]

You mean, as an adult in a poly situation when (or do) you let your parents know, or as a teen or what?

My mother knows we have a open marriage, and while she’s not thrilled with it, she also knows that it’s my life and my decision and I’m happy with it. She’s a sensible enough person to know that if she presses me on the issue or tried to talk me out of it, I’d just stop calling her, so she doesn’t mention it much at all. I told her while we were still dating that we were seeing other folks, and intended to keep on doing that. I was 24 at the time. She had an uncomfortable moment of putting me in a “just like your father who left me to have an open marriage with another woman” box, and we talked about her experiences around her divorce and what led up to it (basically, Dad had always wanted open and she didn’t, and they each thought they could each change for the other, but they couldn’t, so they went their separate ways after 12 years, still loving each other a whole lot) and that was that.

My dad and step-mom know because when I was first considering dating my husband-to-be and we were talking about being poly, I went to them for advice. I think my dad’s advice was the best: “It’s all about honest communication, beginning with being honest with yourself. As a mathematician, I find the ideal number of people for an uncomplicated realtionship is 0.6 - add any more, and things have the potential for getting exponentially more complicated.” He’s so right.

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[QUOTE=Shirley Ujest]
Are there any good books ( fiction and nonfiction) out there on this particular subject?
[/QUOTE]

Neither of the nonfiction books I’ve read about poly are things I’d recommend; the one is written by a smug, condescending newage asshole, and the other is not descriptive of what I do in any useful way (the authors admit that it is more about open sexual relationships than multiple partnerships). I’ve heard good things about “The Lesbian Polyfidelity Primer”, but havne’t gotten around to picking it up. There are actually a lot more books on the subject than there were ten years ago (when there were, basically, the two I have), and I haven’t caught up on my reading. (In theory, some day, I’ll have once again read all the commonly available published material and be able to recommend intelligently again.)

The http://www.polyamory.org/ website has a bunch of links to FAQs, including a list of fictional works that various people have found poly-friendly. More Than Two | What, like, two girlfriends? is a reasonably good collection of essays; I’m loosely acquainted with the author, and have butted heads with him a few times – he insists he’s not focusing on couple-oriented polyamory and keeps using language that presumes it, and I call him out on it every so often.

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[QUOTE=Lightnin’]
Contrapuntal, I’m done trying to argue with you. You’re either being deliberately dense, or… hell, I can’t think of anything charitable to say. Have fun with the thread, dude. :rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]
Thanks!

74

[QUOTE=Shirley Ujest]
I find threads like this absolutely fascinating.
Are there any good books ( fiction and nonfiction) out there on this particular subject?
[/QUOTE]
For fiction, yet provocative thought, try Robert Rimmer-- The Harrad Experiment, etc., and here’s one of his I haven’t read yet, but might put on my summer reading list: “Let’s Really Make Love: Sex, the Family, and Education in the Twenty-First Century”.

Rimmer wrote a fiction book about a polyamorous relationship – the name I can’t remember, nor find on Amazon, but it relates well to the OP. I’m sure someone will come up with it.

75

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
Define “discuss something.”

What I have found enlightening in this thread is the tendency for folks to equivocate. Whether or not baby gets an additional daddy at age 11 seems to be on a par with where the family will go for Thanksgiving. Divorce is relegated to a lifestyle choice. If the parents want a couple of fuck buddies, what business is it of the children? Hey, we’re all just tryin’ to get by, right?

[/QUOTE]

I don’t believe anyone is equating the decision to enter polyamoury with going over the river and through the woods. But you can sit down with your child and explain in simplistic, age-appropriate terms that you’re making changes in lifestyle that you feel are best for the family. They may or may not agree, but they won’t always agree with the decisions you make anyway. Ask any teenager how they felt about moving to another city because daddy had a job opportunity that would be good for everyone. The child may not consider being uprooted from school and friends to be in his or her best interest, but the parent does it anyway. You and I are in no position to judge what’s best for other families.

I don’t know where I’d even find a statistic on it, but my guess is that most polyamorous arrangements don’t involve the third party actually moving in with the family. But if they do, the fact that it’s an alternative arrangement doesn’t necessarily make it a bad one.

Husbands (and wives) have taken “fuck buds” since relationships began (usually behind the spouse’s back). Don’t you think a child would much rather see happy, thriving parents than watch one of them living a life of tears, despair and deceit?

76

Thanks for the linkies.

77

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
I don’t believe anyone is equating the decision to enter polyamoury with going over the river and through the woods. But you can sit down with your child and explain in simplistic, age-appropriate terms that you’re making changes in lifestyle that you feel are best for the family. They may or may not agree, but they won’t always agree with the decisions you make anyway. Ask any teenager how they felt about moving to another city because daddy had a job opportunity that would be good for everyone. The child may not consider being uprooted from school and friends to be in his or her best interest, but the parent does it anyway. You and I are in no position to judge what’s best for other families.
[/QUOTE]
This is exactly what I mean by equivocation. Moving to another city is a matter of a family’s livelihood. Equating that with moving another person into the house and conferring the status of ‘parent’ is wrong. There is no equivalency.

I never said it was necessarily bad because it was alternative. I never sad it was necessarily bad at all.

This is called a false dichotomy. Are those my only two choices?

78

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
This is exactly what I mean by equivocation. Moving to another city is a matter of a family’s livelihood. Equating that with moving another person into the house and conferring the status of ‘parent’ is wrong. There is no equivalency.
I never said it was necessarily bad because it was alternative. I never sad it was necessarily bad at all.

This is called a false dichotomy. Are those my only two choices?
[/QUOTE]

Why would a parent’s emotional health (or for that matter, financial stability) not be considered to be a priority to the well-being of the family?

If you’re not saying it’s bad, what are you saying?

79

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]

This is called a false dichotomy. Are those my only two choices?
[/QUOTE]

I didnt’ mean to imply that these were the only choices; just an example of an obvious comparison.

80

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Why would a parent’s emotional health (or for that matter, financial stability) not be considered to be a priority to the well-being of the family?
[/QUOTE]
As of yet, no one has advanced the theory that such an arrangement is essential to the well-being of the family.

I am not saying, nor have I ever said, that it is necessarily bad. Stop putting words in my mouth. What I am saying is that if it is bad for the children, then the parents are behaving iresponsbly. I have a much lower standard of proof for what is bad for the children than most posters in this thread. I would go so far as to say that the burden of proof is on the adults to show that it is not bad.

I simply cannot accept this explanation. You compared nothing at all. Can parents not be happy and thrive in a monagamous marriage? Can poly adults not go outside the group and cheat? What did your comment have to do with the discussion at hand?