Polygamy advocacy

To allow individuals to exercise their personal choice. I’m not saying I would choose it but others may. Who am I to tell them they can’t and on what basis?

But that’s a tricky question still. I saw a thing on the news one night about a couple who was using their nondescript suburban house as a place for swingers from all over to congregate and do the nasty. Well it’s their right to treat their marriages as they see fit and if they’re all consenting adults…

Except the street wasn’t designed for that many cars, noise disturbed the neighbors, there wouldn’t be enough exits if a fire broke out, sexual behavior spilled out into public spaces, used condoms showed up on the lawns, pervs were leering at neighbors, they were charging fees without a license, etc. “In theory there is no difference between theory and practice - in practice there is” ( Yogi Berra )

Aye, there’s the rub. You want to be sure they aren’t coerced but they could still be indoctrinated from a very young age. A) Some in here will tell you that their parents dragged them to worship services and they always hated it, never believed it, and they resisted it—but when every single person in your community is that way, even teachers at school or anybody you meet, and they’ll ostracize you for going against them…? B) Should the government step in and tell people they can’t raise their children as they see fit? All established religions today were “cults” once upon a time, it seems. “My child should be exposed to the religion so they can realize how wonderful it is.”

…or any other religion. But if we can look at various cultures that practice it, it may help create guidelines, show how they overcame some problems. I do like the idea of fairness as I perceived it; maybe the husband can’t walk away so easily.

It’s pretty new territory…if you had asked me a few years ago what a “non-binary” person was, I wouldn’t have had a clue. Sex changes are becoming more of a thing. Things are changing fast and I don’t know what to anticipate next (Woody Allen predicted a thing called the “Orgasmatron,” didn’t he?). If we can extend freedom to people, reasonably, I think we should.

But first and foremost: protect the kids. Adults can make good or bad decisions for themselves but the kids may need outside advocacy and protection—if this marriage experiment goes bad, the kids must still be provided for, full stop.

But let’s remember, too, that some think gays/lesbians shouldn’t raise kids because “they’ll make the kids gay”—there’s that funky prejudice/xenophobia/ignorance that we have to keep in check.

And how do we calculate tax rates for extra heads of household or inheritance if there’s a death or visitation rights and child support if there’s a divorce etc.?

I heard of a special marriage some were getting (in Louisiana, maybe?) where those who agree to it have to take steps if the marriage sours. They can’t get a divorce before going to a certain amount of marriage counseling, waiting a certain time, that sort of thing. Maybe taking care of the details early on, while everybody is still lovey-dovey, is part of the solution.

Are you seriously against empowering women? If polygamy were legal, then those women you claim to care about would have the levers of power at their disposal, instead of fearing to go to the authorities because what they’re doing is illegal.

It’s ALWAYS easier to report bad behavior when you don’t have to tell the police, “I know that illegal behavior is going on because I’m participating in it.”

What does that have to do with Empowering women?

You think it is OK for a 12yo girl to be forced into a marriage by the cult?

No, they wouldnt have any levers of power at their disposal. In those cults, the cult leaders- all older males- only “marry” one woman. The rest are not legally married so they dont run afoul of the bigamy laws. So, the only tool to use against these perverts is the pedophilia laws- when they claim a underage girl as a “wife” and make her pregnant, they can be arrested for sex with a underaged girl.

However, that tool is gone if the marriage is legal.

Currently the girls can report the behavior to the police since they are NOT participating in underaged sex. They are being raped. The problem is that they are either brainwashed or kept away from the public and the police. Once in a a while one of them escapes and arrests are made.

Being kept as a underaged sex slave in a compound in the desert by a cult is not being "empowered’, how can you possibly think it is?

Now I made it very clear that as long as all parties are true consenting adults , then plural marriages would be OK. That woudl be empowering women. Not making them 12yo sex slaves in a walled compound out in the desert.

Yes, we absolutely had discussions about whether gay marriage was a slippery slope to polygamy, beastiality, and incest. (I don’t remember anyone bringing up necrophilia.)

What i said at the time was that yes, polygamy might be next, but it’s much more complicated due to having to decide who’s the next of kin, whether marriage is associative, etc.

But i argued that there wasn’t a slippery slope to beastiality or incest. Beastiality because marriage is a contract, and you can’t enter into contracts with animals. And incest because there’s no need. The demand for marriage is a desire to create legal family bonds, and anyone in an incestuous relationship is already close family, and didn’t really need marriage.

And for beasitality you cant have the critical element- consenting adults. Nor for necrophilia.

Exactly

Capt

Yeah, I know anecdotes are not data, but the only polyamorous relationship I’m personally acquainted with (a decades-long arrangement, so far) consists of one woman and her two husbands (only one of whom is her legal spouse, of course).

Certainly there is no possible argument against them on the grounds of their being “unbiblical” or non-traditional, as there was against same-sex marriage, at least.

But governments legally recognizing a specific familial relationship between two unrelated people, of whatever sex, is definitely different from governments legally recognizing such a relationship between an indefinite number of people. Polygamy is less complicated in many patriarchal societies because there’s one husband and he makes the decisions, end of story. Working out the legalities of gender-egalitarian polygamy in a modern democracy would be a much more complicated business.

It’s not like conventional marriages are 100% successful; with the noted provisions of free consenting adults etc., I think polygamists have as much right to try and fail as anybody else.

This still cracks me up

Not if it isn’t legal to marry a 12 year old.

Nobody in this thread is arguing that it ought to be. If you want to argue that adults are more likely to be exploited in a plural marriage than in a singular one, go ahead. But to keep going in about 12 year olds in a thread in which everybody has made it very clear that they’re talking about 18+ is pretty much irrelevant.

But if we allow Poly marriages without first changing the marriage laws in every state- then that is exactly what you are allowing. 100% legal pedos.

Getting rid of child brides iis the first step… and of course child grooms, too.

You are also allowing 100% legal pedos if you allow someone to marry just one underage person. So I don’t see what this has to do with polygamy at all.

For the same reason, a large percentage of the homeless population in Salt Lake City, and to a lesser extent Las Vegas and Phoenix, is made up of teenage boys and young men who were kicked out of the FLDS communities for showing interest in young girls and women who had already been promised, if you will, to a man often old enough to be her grandfather.

Is there any research regarding how men feel about being forced into arranged marriages, often with women or girls young enough to be their children or grandchildren?

I seriously doubt that any older male is “forced” into an arranged marriage with younger women. In the societies we are discussing power is held by men.

I’m pretty sure the men choose them. Nobody can make the men marry someone they don’t want to.

Normally the marriage is arranged between the older man and the woman’s father.

Not only that, but only one state in the union (Massachusetts) has a law allowing 12-year-old girls to marry (yes, it’s sex specific), and it requires both parental and judicial consent, and the age of consent for statutory rape purposes is 16.

All states’ general age of marriage consent is at least 18. With exceptions, none besides Mass. allows marriage under the age of 15, and most are higher than that.

Do you have a cite for that? This says there are several states with no lower age limit, but it’s a few years out of date now. It would be nice to see an updated list if you have it.

If it requires judicial consent i would guess that it’s an obsolete law that hasn’t been “used” in a long time. We are a long time past needing to marry off pregnant children to avoid having them ruined. And I’d guess that was the rationale for that law.

Nobody should have to explain to anyone else why their living arrangements are “compelling.” It ought to be a personal choice. The sticky wicket here is that the involvement of religious coercion from childhood makes it murky whether the women consent or not.

I don’t pretend to have an answer here. It’s a hard nut to crack. Some years ago I found myself vigorously arguing that France was well within its rights to ban the hijab and other face/body coverings because I thought that this was a form of religious oppression usually coerced by men. But later I learned that many of the women choose it, prefer it, and functionally see it as more of a fashion accessory. Based on that understanding, I was incorrect about wanting to see the state regulate it.

Here again is a similar case, but I think it’s made more clear that some of the wives aren’t of age, or were groomed from an early age to be part of some man’s sex farm. It looks highly problematic to me but again I’m not close enough to judge.