Last night I watched a program on A & E about polygamy in Utah. It is evidently pretty widely practiced. The program centered around one particular family. The family leader and head of their church and his brother were convicted of child abuse and incest but neither was charged with polygamy. It appears that for some of these families, polygamy is simply an excuse to abuse their women, children and the welfare system in Utah. (The head of this family is thought to be one of the richest men in Salt Lake City, a millionare, yet most of his “wives and children” live on welfare.) Now some of the women who have escaped believe the federal government should intervene in Utah since the state government is reluctant to do anything. Did anyone here see this program? And what do you think of polygamy?
If all the adults in question are in agreement, then I don’t see any problem with polygamy. Why should the government intervene in this issue? I do have a problem with polygamy when it’s ‘movie of the week’ fodder, one guy with three wives in different states, none of whom know about the other.
To me, the whole idea that the government must rush in and stop polygamy because some women are abused is no different than saying government should outlaw marriage because some women are abused. If there is abuse or fraud involved, then those crimes should be prosecuted.
DISCLAIMER: I am not a Mormon, a resident of Utah, or considering polygamy. I can barely afford the wife and kids I’ve got!
And by the first posting in this thread, the related veiled bigotry in another thread is proven to be, well, not true. Y’all really should polish up on these anti-Mormon kicks. This board has seen some much less lame attempts than the latest two.
Polygamy has been illegal in Utah and forbidden by the LDS Church since 1890. However, there are a few radical offshoot cults, located mostly in southern Utah, which still practice polygamy as a sacred ordinance. Bear in mind that they are a fringe element. The LDS does not practice polygamy! I’m no friend of the Church, but if you’re going to go after the Mormons, at least get your facts straight. Besides, they tend to be very nice people, as a rule.
I have no problem with the practice myself as long as the women and children involved are not experiencing a violation of their basic human rights. The program last night did show a happy little polygamist family. (Frankly when I was still married I could have used a “sister wife” to help me out.) But the main focus of the program centered around this one sick, incestuous family that have been known for generations. The head of the family is thought to be a multi-millionare but most of his wives and children live in squalor on welfare. The female children in this family are given over to a virtual life of slavery at the tender age of 14 or 15. They are then expected to produce a child every year. This particular family is rife with genetic diseases from generations of intermarriage.
What is your problem anyway!?? I didn’t say a damned word about Mormons in particular! My brother-in-law is a Mormon. But these sects evidently do exsist, possibly in the thousands, and the official government and law enforcement turn a blind eye to the practice. Do not tell me that because the offical church was strong armed a hundred years ago to give up the practice that they do not somehow sympathize with those sects that didn’t! A high offical in the church was on the documentary last night and stated that polygamy was part of their doctrine, they sympathize with the practice. If not, someone would have eventually been arrested after a hundred years! Besides don’t tell me I’m Mormon bashing. The official Mormon church is secretive as hell. They are paranoid about what the rest of the Christian community thinks about them. If not they never would have been scammed so badly by that guy who wrote the “white salamander letter”. They are terrified that someone will come along one day and blow old Joe Smith out of the water and completely destroy their empire. Don’t blow smoke up my butt on this one. That church is all powerful in Utah, they are not officially sanctioning polygamy and all the abuses that go along with it but they are allowing it to go on for hundreds of years now.
That’s what the guy in the other thread means by separation of church and state. Government leaders in Utah are in the pocket of the Mormon church. That’s fine if you are Mormon, but what about the 25% or so other Utah citizens that do not benefit from government furthering the cause of the Mormon church?
I haven’t seen the program, so I don’t know the details, but this would be my guess.
I would assume that laws against polygamy only apply when a person goes through more than one civil, legally binding ceremony. I suppose that these “polygamists” have never been officially married at all, or not more than once, but only have had “church” marriages. So their situation would be the same as a man having sexual relations with more than one woman and having children by both. Laws against that situation probably exist but are rarely enforced as far as I know.
My opinion of polygamy: as long as there is no child abuse or coercion involved, and as long as it’s open to both genders (i.e. polyandry and polygyny both accepted), I have no problem with it. I remember posting once in “Comments on Cecil’s Columns” that I personally would replace the legal institution of marriage with the idea of a “family contract”, that can be entered by as many adults as the group allows, with the provision that new additions to the “family” can only happen with a unanimous decision, whereas an individual can make a decision to quit without needing approval of the other members of the “family”.
As previously explained in this thread and others, the LDS Church has forbidden polygamy since the late 1800s. It was one of the requirements that Utah had to meet before the US would accept them as a state. It is true that Mormon polygamy is still practiced by some, but how widespread and accepted it is, is arguable. Some Utahns swear that it is common and overlooked by authorities; others swear that it only happens among fringe elements in remote locations. As usual, reality probably lies somewhere in between. I’m none too sure that I’d take a television programme as a reliable source on an issue that’s been argued and controversial for over 100 years.
Please be aware that there are MANY varieties of polygamy - the outrageous situations featured on television are generally selected BECAUSE they are outrageous, not because they are typical. Please don’t equate the TV picture of child abuse and slavery with polygamy in general.
If there are situations of fraud and abuse, then those are actionable situations and should be dealt with as such. They are not caused by polygamy, any more than all of the non-polygamous domestic abuse cases are caused by monogamy.
Polygamy is a perfectly acceptable, workable, and fairly common (in the big picture) marriage arrangement.
After looking at the A&E writeup on this show, I don’t think they were out to get Mormons. They seem to be going after polygamy. Again.
The show title is “Inside Polygamy”. No mention of LDS there. The description only briefly mentions that they’re talking about Mormons, the LDS, or Utah. They do go on for quite a while, however, about the evils of polygamy.
Not once in the description do they mention the “happy little polygamous family” or any of the thousands of other polygamous families living in the USA (much less around the world) today. And obviously, from the OP and followup post, there was VERY little mention in the show itself of anything positive about poly families.
Fairly typical ‘news’ coverage of multiple-partner marriages, in fact.
The subject has been in the local news. Since the Olympics will be held in Salt Lake 2002. Just couldn’t help it I guess. This 16 year old kid walked 7 miles to a quick stop and called the police after her dad beat her until she blacked out. Guess she knew she was screwed so she went ahead and told the police that she had been given to her uncle in “celestial marriage”. Her dad had beat her for running away.
I’ve been looking into this today a little. The practice seems to be a little bit more widespread in Utah and Arizona than anyone would like for the rest of the world to know. According to one article I’ve read in Colorado City the average age of it’s citizens is 12 1/2.
I’m sorry but if you don’t think the practice of pedophillia, incest and siring children into the multiple didgits then abandoning them financially is disgusting then there is something wrong with you.
All of this harks back to the LDS church and it’s early doctrine. Naturally they would want to distance themselves from their kissing cousins the polygamists right now. Just doesn’t work for me. I’ve already read how “the Brethern” of the church have manipulated history, church doctrine and their congregation in order to make the LDS church look more like a mainstream religion.
No argument from me on this. They should be prosecuting the cases that you have mentioned.
Where I disagree is equating these practices with polygamy, a perfectly legitimate form of marriage. See, Mormon-bashing aside, you titled this thread (and talk in the other thread about) polygamy.
Or can I start going on & on about all of the incest and domestic abuse cases in ‘normal’ families and blame all of that on monogamy?
I’m not going to try to defend the LDS; I haven’t the information nor inclination and there are several Mormons here quite capable of taking on that task, if they so desire. But I would caution you against equating the actions of a relatively small number of individuals with the Church as a whole, unless you have some serious evidence to back it up. Something more substantial than a television report and a few newspaper stories. As I said earlier, news is based on the sensational and will consequently always play those situations up.
To my knowledge, there is no evidence for monogomy, polygamy, polyandry, or polygymy (sp.?) being any better than any of the others…hey SDMB members, lets start an experiment! Everybody draw a number out of the hat…
There is evidence…The early LDS church and others who practice multiple marriages use let’s say…Abraham as an example…what they don’t emphasize is what happened to his second wife Haggar…he cast her aside! He cast her aside because his first wife didn’t like her or her kid! They ran her out of town. And God himself had to promise her that they would be taken care of. I do hope the poor women who practice this form of marriage for religous reasons wake up and read their Bibles.
Besides this practice is so hush-hush. Is that because it’s illegal, somehow I don’t think so. Polygamists haven’t had to worry about prosecution too much for over 40 years. Perhaps another reason why it is so damned secretive is that they don’t want society to know how they are abusing and enslaving their female children.
You are not responding. We are not discussing pedophilia, incest, or abuse. We are discussing polygamy. You might wish to address the subject at hand.
I really like the family contract idea that someone suggested. I think it would be a good way for the government to ensure that it has the necessary data to provide benefits, while being flexible for everyone.
Matt…the family contract would be fine…first of all if the rest of society were as opened minded as we, it is illegal right now. Secondly…if the people involved in entering into this contract are not coerced or brainwashed into believing that they will go to hell if they don’t. You’ve gotta remember too, these people are living this way because they have been raised to think that they will not reach the ultimate of celestial hights if they don’t. For a lot of people getting to Heaven is a big incentive to give away all of your personal freedoms.
OK, Needs2Know, I’m going to give it one more shot. If this does not get through, then I don’t see the point in bothering again.
Please read carefully and slowly.
**The problems that you describe (i.e., incest, abuse, underage marriage, coerced marriage or pedophilia, fraud) are NOT repeat NOT due to polygamy per se.
To continue to state repeatedly that polygamy causes said problems is EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE.**
If, for some reason, you feel the need to continue your diatribe against these individuals, PICK A DIFFERENT NAME FOR THEM. No one here has argued against your statements regarding these specific incidents.
I believe that these things have happened, in these few areas of Utah. I agree that those people should be prosecuted for the crimes they have committed. They probably haven’t legally married multiple times, so they can not be prosecuted for bigamy, but they could certainly be prosecuted for other offenses.
Those individual cases are NOT repeat NOT representative of all polygamous families.
There is NO EVIDENCE that any form of marital agreement is inherently better or worse than any other. Abuse can and does occur in ALL types of marriage. To equate the specific practices of a very small group with polygamy in general is an invalid argument.
smilingjaws For some insight on what MANY MORE women who have been involved in polygamous relationships think, check out the various sites available. Here’s a few to start:
Sorry, everyone. Just had to get that taken care of. Now on to the more interesting discussion.
Arnold - I would definitely agree with you on the ‘family contract’ concept. I’ve been promoting that idea for years. But I do have problems with your ‘unanimous approval’ idea…is this something the government will enforce? I’d have to absolutely disagree with that. WAY too much invasion of privacy for my comfort.
I follow your wish to be sure that these marriages were consensual, BUT… To tell ADULT HUMANS how to run their marriages, their families and their lives strikes me as outrageously intrusive, eh?
People enter bad monogamous marriages, for various reasons. Young and impressionable adults are convinced to marry when they shouldn’t (for any number of reasons). Aside from age-of-consent laws, we don’t try to make sure those people are protected from their own stupidity. Why should poly marriages be different?
The big questions in my mind are how it would work PRACTICALLY. When you get to the nitty gritty issues of property rights, child protection (i.e., custody and support), etc., it starts getting extremely interesting! What can be legislated and what would have to be left up to individuals? Could the ‘family contract’ simply be required to be a written contract that must cover certain basic areas?
I agree with Needs2Know. Polygamy per se is not the problem, but the way that it is being implemented most certainly is. It is being used as a tool to enslave female children and abuse women (much as the Catholic Church used their power to torture and abuse during the Inquisition). This does not mean that we should throw the baby out with the bath water. But things need to change.
Are they likely to? Nope. Have things ever really changed when white men had the power in a situation? Don’t make me laugh!
Ha, ha, AS IF! I’d like to see the numbers on how many men have multiple wives vs. how many women have multiple husbands! It’s obvious who has the power here. And that power is being abused.
Need2Know has a good point that (fringe) LDS polygamy is different from the sort of voluntary polyamory that goes on among consenting adults who know what they are getting into. When it’s a case of; “do this or else”, alot changes.
As a former practictioner of a poly lifestyle (polyfidelity), I can attest to the generally benign nature of the practice. Some facts:
Poly sexual practices (polyfidelity, polygamy, polyandry, polyamory etc.) predates, postdates and occurs in parallel to the practices of the early Mormon church. They are most definitely “johnny-come-latelies” to the poly scene, and have never formed more than a small part of it.
I know some asshole Mormons and some groovy Mormons. I strongly disagree with some of the political positions of the church (e.g. opposing gay civil marriage), but I can’t see how it’s either fair or responsible to tar its millions of members with the brush of a few nutjobs, sickos and criminals who have been repeatedly and and thoroughly repudiated by the modern church.
Being married to more than one person, in the legal and contractual sense, is prohibited in, AFAIK, every western nation. Having sex with multiple people, without “benefit” of marriage, is rarely prohibited and even more rarely are those prohibitions enforced.
No controlled studies have been done; it is really irresponsible to make a hasty generalization on the basis of anecdotal evidence and a biased sample that poly practicitioners have a higher rate of child abuse, incest, or other ethical offenses. One might conjecture, however, that the intelligent pedophile might very well establish a polygamous lifestyle to afford himself (or, more rarely herself) with increased opportunities to realize his evil desires. But such an action cannot be used to condem poly lifestyles; to do so would be the fallacy of inversion of cause and effect.
First of all I was not addressing polygamy in general. I was addressing polygamy here, in Utah and the surrounding states. I really don’t give a rip about what’s going on in India. I can’t do much about that. But as a citizen of the United States I do have a say so about what goes on in my country. Or at least I’m supposed to despite the fact that I’m a woman.
And redtail…
you can state till your little fingers fall off…I read you right the first time. But after all it is just your opinion, I happen to disagree. That is in the context of what I was originally talking about…the practice of polygamy in Utah that is based in the early tenents of the LDS church…THE LIFSTYLE BREEDS ABUSE! The doctrine is and was set up by some man that looks more and more to my way of thinking like a very successful version of a Jim Jones or David Koresh. (If I remember correctly they both used their “god status” as a means of sleeping with every woman and woman-child in their clan.) My opinion regardless of whether you agree or not. So state to your hearts content. Now I will thank you for your opinion because I asked for it. Just don’t get all bent out of shape if I choose to disagree. I will admit that at the time I wrote the OP I didn’t have much of an opinion on this subject at all, now I do.
What the victims of this practice are saying is that while they are pleased to see some of these men prosectued for welfare fraud, child abuse, and incest, they are disappointed that they are not seeing them charged for the original act of polygamy that brought about these other crimes. Bigamy in the state of Utah can carry up to 5 years in jail. Perhaps these things do not go hand in hand with other types of polygamist relationships but evidently quite often in Utah they do. Because of the original tenents they are based upon.
So Singledad…go ahead and have as many wives as you wish. Nobody is accusing you of child abuse, but evidently in Utah and Arizona it pretty much goes hand in hand. And if you don’t consider marrying a 13 year old girl child abuse then tell me what you do call it. Because according to what I am reading even if she isn’t their niece, marrying a girl under the age of 18 is pretty widely practiced by the polygamists in Utah. Of course now it is against the law to marry anyone under 16. Of course these guys don’t obtain a license so who would know how old the girl is that becomes one of their celestial brides. I wasn’t really talking about polygamy in general anyway. I just don’t care how many wives some guy has out on the African tundra. Don’t give me a history either. I’m a woman, I know how far back our oppression goes. I also know how often we are oppressed even now usually in the name of God. I won’t even look at that “Timothy” thread. I know what that shit is all about.