Sweet lotus: You’re, umm, well, er…, umm, “sweet”. 
Take it to the Pit, children.
My last post was edited for length…it was rather interesting I thought. Interesting that the foundations of polygamy in the Mormon splinter sects are directly based on the teachings and behavior of the founder Joseph Smith.
Joseph Smith evidently had over 30 wives, most of them in their 20s, 30s and teens. Eleven of them already married to other men. It also appears that he went to great lengths to hide his liasons with these other women from his first wife Emma. Subsequently these “wives” and the children that issued from the consumation of these marriages were not taken care of financially or in any other way by Smith. According to the brief excerpts that were given he also had to employ a certain amount of persuasion in order for the families of these young women to be convinced that their daughters were not being used in an un-Godly manner. He usually told the families that God had commanded him or given him the woman in “marriage”. These early church menbers, like so many today, were so convinced of Smith’s status as a prophet that they agreed even though they were appalled by his requests. There is evidence that he even would send those men that would oppose him on “a mission” to get them out of the way, so his “marriages” could be performed.
The reason that I referenced this particular part of early Mormon history is because I believe it directly relates to the manner in which polygamy is being practiced by these splinter groups. They are simply emulating the practices of “The Prophet”. They are marrying women, not just one or two, but in the double digits and then allowing the state to support them on welfare. Female children are being exchanged like cattle. It’s no wonder that Utah and the LDS church are embarassed by this practice.
I have to agree that in this instance it is not enough to simply prosecute these men for child abuse, tax fraud, statutory rape, incest, and welfare fraud, the root of the problem is in their insistance that this form of polygamy is justified by the prophet himself. Some may feel this is freedom of religon but it would also constitue freedom in many instances to also commit the above mentioned crimes. And I don’t believe that anyone with half a brain thinks that this form of slavery should be taking place here in the United States.
Needs2know
Needs2know:
Perhaps the “root” of the problem lies here, but to try and change that eould be prosecuting a thought crime. What do you suggest the government of Utah do? Put them in “reeducation camps” until they are willing to get on public access television and renounce the theory of polygamy and the teachings of the prophet?
Are you from America? We don’t do that here! It is perfectly OK if I think that strictly patriarchial polygamy is the best and most natural of family designs. It is perfectly OK if I think that having sex with 12 year old girls is good for them. It is perfectly OK if I think that Hitler was on to something, or that the only good nigger is a dead nigger. (Obviously, I don’t think any of these things). My opinions and beliefs are not open to regulation by the government. My actions, on the other hand, are: if my beliefs lead me to break laws, I can and should be prosecuted. This is exactly what it sounds like the state of Utah is doing–prosecuting actions, not beliefs. Are you suggesting that they do otherwise?
Were your arguement to go like this: “In Utah, the crimes of child rape, incest, and welfare fraud are often overlooked by the authorites due to a lingering sympathy for the practicioners of thier own religion in its original form.” You just might have a leg to stand on: I am willing to buy the idea that this has happened, not due to vast govermental conspirisy, but merely because if the local law inforcement agents are of local origen and have grown up down the road from these families they may well accept things that they wouldn’t otherwise because “it’s always been this way”. This may well happen–I don’t know. But instead of following up this arguement with “Therefore, law-enforecement officers should be trained to recognize the signs of the crimes of child rape, incest, and welfare fraud whereever they see it, and encouraged to treat these crimes as the crimes they are,” you instead seem to be saying that the solution is to force all these people–the ones who commit crimes and the ones who don’t–to acknowledge that thier beliefs are wrong, that the prophet is wrong, and that there way of life is inherently evil. This approach seems awful totalitarian to me, and ineffective to boot. Why do you feel that prosecuting the crimes, not the beliefs, is inadequate?
And who was it that made us all marry 45 six-year-old girls? Who made us beat and abuse everyone within a five mile radius, on a daily basis? Who could turn us into evil slaveholders, totally possessed by the intoxication of defrauding the state and the joys of demon-inspired polygamy?
Who could it be, who could it be??
Who was it that made us conspire to hide all evidence of these acts by our brethren? Who could POSSIBLY be responsible for all of these heinous crimes???
Oh, I don’t know. Who could it be?
Could it be…
JOSEPH SMITH???
I’m still curious as to how changing the governmant in Utah would affect the issue outside of Utah. Why aren’t folks lambasting Nevada’s government or Idaho’s or Virginia’s for that matter? Polygamy/Bigamy has occurred in all of those places, too.
I did not make reference to Joseph Smith in some attempt to discredit the LDS church or even use his behavior and the behavior of his followers as a means to call plural marriage evil. I was simply trying to make the point that the unlawful practices of polygamy in Utah and yes, oh ye hair splitters, the surrounding states, is rooted in the early teachings of the church. Not only is the practice rooted in the early church teachings but the manner in which it is carried out is also very closely related to how it was carried out more than a hundred years ago. And since 75 to 80% of this state is practicing some form of this belief, then it appears the state and local government have not actively pursued prosecution of these individuals. Of course now that the entire country may have a stake in what is going on there because of the upcoming Olympics, they appear to be cracking down. They have fairly recently charged a man, Tom Greene, with bigamy. He was openly going around the country on various talk shows with several of his wives. I’ve even seen an editorial by a law professor that believes this is a form of selective justice, or perhaps this poor man is being used as a token. After all there are quite a few very well known families that have been engaging in these practices for years, yet they are not being hauled into court. Anyway, I don’t think the practice of polygamy will be in any danger of becoming an issue in say…Virginia, because if there are polygamists here then they are rather discreet and most probably not quite as plentiful.
Anyway, we will see what happens in the next couple of years. Will there be more prosecutions, or will it all end here with these couple of men? Who knows? I do feel for the people caught up in this belief system who are miserable and terrified, yet unable to make the sacrificies needed to gather the strength to escape.
Needs2know