Pope John Paul II is not deserving of sainthood

The BBQ Pit
1

I’m not a Roman Catholic but I despise Pope John Paul II and strongly disagree that he should be considered as a saint.

His reactionary views on abortion and homosexuality alone should be enough to disqualify him. His archaic views on women priesthood are also despicable.

I hold him responsible for the priest sex abuse scandal, a cover up that started at the very top. True, he was senile for the last few years of his papacy, but that is no excuse.

Neither Pope John Paul II or Ronald Reagan ended communism. The communist economic and political system simply collapsed.

Surviving an assassination attempt doesn’t make you a saint, it simply means he had access to the best health care in the world.

If Dante were writing the Inferno today, I have no doubt John Paul II would make into one of the circles of Hell.

2

If you want to make this into a debate, you need to lay out what the rules are for canonization within the Catholic Church, and explain why he doesn’t qualify. So far, you’ve convinced me that he shouldn’t be a saint in your religion, but nothing else.

3

Here is a link to the rules of Canonization. This link is from EWTN, a Roman Catholic television network
…During this first phase the Postulation established by the diocese, or religious institute, to promote the Cause must gather testimony about the life and virtues of the Servant of God. Also, the public and private writings must be collected and examined. This documentary phase of the process can take many years and concludes with the judgment of a diocesan tribunal, and the ultimate decision of the bishop, that the heroic virtues of the Servant of God have or have not been demonstrated…

I can’t imagine someone looking at the life of Pope John Paul II and determining that he qualifies.

Indeed, I’d prefer a second Cadaver Synod Let’s exhume his body and put him on trial for crimes against children.

4

I’m not Catholic (I’m Jewish), and not an admirer of the late pope, whatever sins may be laid directly at his feet. I disagree with his views on almost everything, but this is none of my business. I might consider his views on abortion, homosexuality, and reproductive technology laughable, if they weren’t so influential, but I don’t have a horse in this race. His views pretty much lined up with the church as it was when he took the helm, and it really wasn’t his job to make the church more worldly, or more like what I, a non-member, want it to be.

I also think the church’s definition of miracle, in general, is silly, but I hear Christians talk about all kinds of things as “miracles” that are everyday events, like childbirth, so it’s an argument of semantics as much as theology.

Lastly, it matters not at all to me who the church claims is a saint. It’s a meaningless label, as far as I’m concerned.

Therefore, I have no opinion, and I don’t think it’s my place to have one. It has no bearing on my life whatsoever who has the title “saint.”

If Roman Catholics on the board want to debate this, I will follow with interest, but I don’t have anything to contribute.

Oh, and RE: Dante: he doesn’t speak for the church. He wrote a work of fiction. It’s not, as far as I know, regarded as a real vision of hell, or things to come, so whatever Dante may have thought of JPII, it’s also irrelevant.

5

I’m not Catholic, but when did sainthood become just a popularity contest? Oh, sure, I heard they attributed some half-assed minor “miracle” to him, but it’s just a beauty pageant anymore, innit?

6

It’s interesting that popular opinion of JPII seems to have done a complete 180 degree turn since his death - when he was alive, he was universally referred to in glowing terms - “rock star Pope”, “saved the Church”, “connects with young people”, “defender of Solidarity”, etc. He would do things like end sermons with “hasta la vista, baby” and the media loved him for it.

I’m not Catholic either, but I really had no inkling at the time that there was any dissenting viewpoint - any attempt to personally blame him for any Church scandal would have been considered to be in the gauchest bad taste.

7

Sam: It started as a popularity contest – some late local church leader would become revered and eventually the greater authority would adopt that; then at a point when there was a surfeit of questionable saints, it became a long drawn out adversative process, that always could be shortcircuited by the Pope. JP2 himself formalized the Popes’ latitude to leapfrog the process because the Church needed more saints from different countries and later times and it was becoming harder to “prove” miracles.

8

But John XXIII is. Just saying.

9

I’m curious if the OP thinks that anyone is deserving of Catholic sainthood.

10

Well, they’d have to be on board with abortion and gay marriage, for a start.

11

Saint Lady Gaga. The patron saint of meat packers.

12

John XII might have been sympathetic enough to qualify for the OP’s definition of sanctity.
“Then, rising up, the cardinal priest Peter testified that he himself had seen John XII celebrate Mass without taking communion. John, bishop of Narni, and John, a cardinal deacon, professed that they themselves saw that a deacon had been ordained in a horse stable, but were unsure of the time. Benedict, cardinal deacon, with other co-deacons and priests, said they knew that he had been paid for ordaining bishops, specifically that he had ordained a ten-year-old bishop in the city of Todi… They testified about his adultery, which they did not see with their own eyes, but nonetheless knew with certainty: he had fornicated with the widow of Rainier, with Stephana his father’s concubine, with the widow Anna, and with his own niece, and he made the sacred palace into a whorehouse. They said that he had gone hunting publicly; that he had blinded his confessor Benedict, and thereafter Benedict had died; that he had killed John, cardinal subdeacon, after castrating him; and that he had set fires, girded on a sword, and put on a helmet and cuirass. All, clerics as well as laymen, declared that he had toasted to the devil with wine. They said when playing at dice, he invoked Jupiter, Venus and other demons. They even said he did not celebrate Matins at the canonical hours nor did he make the sign of the cross.”
Wikipedia

13

It’s generally considered good form to wait for people to die before canonizing them, tho.

14

The Saints don’t really have the salary cap space to sign him. And with him being dead and all, he can’t really help the team. We haven’t signed anyone that useless since Bum Phillips was the coach.

15

As long as we’re throwing out all the other rules, why not that one?

16

Rants belong in The BBQ Pit where you will next find this thread.

(If someone wishes to actually debate the topic, you may submit a new thread, here, that is based on something more than personal acrimony.)

[ /Moderating ]

17

It’s funny. When I learned of his canonization, I told my husband that I thought he was an odd choice for sainthood, not because I think he was evil (not really a fan, but I don’t think he was a monster or anything), but because he didn’t really have the aura of saintliness/holiness that makes the canonization feel legitimate.

In other words, it feels like it’s just because he was popular, not because people are convinced he was saintly.

To contrast, despite my utter contempt and disregard for Mother Teresa, she had a lot of people convinced she was saintly. She had the perception of a sort of holiness that JPJ2 never seemed to have. (I was a Catholic during most of his papacy.)

It really does feel almost like a PR move for an organization that has a lot of need of good PR.

18

When people began leaving the church in large numbers, openly disagreeing with its beliefs and deciding what to follow and what to ignore.

Even though this asshole of a Pope supported and protected child rapists, he is still for some reason seen as a good guy. In order to placate the Catholic sheeple they’re cannonizing him for publicity.

19

No, not as long as “evidence of miracles” is a requirement (not that I’m the OP.) That requirement makes the whole Catholic church seem like a low-rent version of Ghost Hunters, and they’d be wise to back away from it.

20

Er, aren’t the child rapists among the ones picking saints? If I were a child rapist, I’d think my protectors were saints too.