That’s quite a mea culpa, daveswifejen. Thank you. Sorry I came down so hard on you. Touched a nerve. I have been interested in parenting issues since getting knocked up, and I’ve done a lot of reading about some of these issues from cross-cultural, sociological, and even economic perspectives. What I learned is how much we don’t know, and how much is relative. I get on my high horse about it. Not one of my more flattering traits.
all I can say is bless the potty training gods because China bambina was pretty dang easy before reaching two. She wets the bed once every 2-3 months these days (usually when grandma gives her a lot to drink and that wasn’t noticed and didn’t make sure she went before going to bed). I’m guessing that wetting the bed at 3 1/2 a couple times a year is pretty normal behavior. Just asking if anyone else as this type of experience?
daveswifejen, many posters don’t have the grace to come back and say ‘oops, I came across wrong’. I’m quite glad you do. It is a lesson pretty much all of us had to learn at some time or other (that sometimes our word choice implies something we didn’t mean… heck, see above on my last post!). Good for you for coming back and saying so instead of going away in a huff.
If you don’t look down your nose at others for their choices that differ from yours, then there’s no beef. (though there’s no way you’d know that my highly intelligent, advanced-motor-skills, extremely verbal child has a borderline-clinical anxiety disorder, either - some things truly cannot be assessed without a professional, so even the walking talking apparently normal kids whose parents appear to be sane can have issues you don’t see… easier, for me, to assume that there’s a good reason, and give them the benefit of my compassion for whatever they’re dealing with. But I guess that’s my way, partly because I learned it the hard way.)
ChinaGuy, as for wetting the bed, a few times a year until they are 5 or 6 seems pretty common. At 3.5, hardly a blip on the radar. Being sick, being over-tired, and being excited or stressed can all throw the system a bit. If that only happens a few times a year, that’s pretty decent.
So the test for whether or not we should offer our children the biologically appropriate nutrition through the toddler years is essentially cultural? Thanks for clearing that up for me…I always thought as much. [/smug]
As one who nursed a nearly-3 year-old, it seems to me that you are objecting to lack of ‘nursing manners’ and not the nursing itself. Most families that I know who practice sustained nursing encourage their nurslings to wait until they are alone to ask to nurse – not unlike the way I ask my son to whisper “I have to go poopies”. Not because there is anything shameful about either process, but because we like to show a little conformity in social settings.
But that’s just us.
Now, once you start to suggest that our sense of social nice-nice should overrule our logic and intuition about what is best for our children; once you imply that it is just wrong to nurse walking/talking children because of our social ick factor, you step over a very dangerous line for this mother bear.
Every source I’ve ever read has said that if the kid has awareness of the urge to void, that he or she is physically ready to train.
Sounds like this 4 year old has that awareness.
I know that some kids are resistant to training, but when I babysat, the resistant kids were also the kids of the parents who didn’t handle accidents and potty-training fears very well. The more the parents lost their patience, the more resistant the kid got. The parents who praised “going in the potty”, soothed fears, and didn’t blow up over accidents had kids far more amenable to potty training. So I’m inclined to think that a lot of “psychological resistance” in the kid is actually due to the parents being bad at training.
Furthermore, I’d be annoyed too if I agreed to babysit for a four year old and then found out the kid wasn’t potty-trained. I’ve personally never known a four year old who wasn’t, and it would be a big (unwelcome) shock to find out otherwise.
Depends on the kid to an extend. My 4 year old boy wasn’t daytime trained until he was 3 1/2 because he was at an extreme bossy “no” stage before then and would simply announce “I’m not going potty because I don’t want to!” Now he’s over that but often forgets when he has to pee and wets his pants about once a day. He is still not nighttime trained because of his sister (see below), but never poops in his pants anymore.
His sister is nearly 3. I have no idea when she will be potty trained because she lacks comprehension of basic concepts. She talks a lot but her understanding of things is so limited that knowing when to go potty is still beyond her. She often asks to go, but always right after her brother has gone and she’s always wet already. She doesnt usually sit on the toilet, just goes into the bathroom, takes off her diaper, and says “i’m done!”
Nights are an issue because if her older brother went to the bathroom at night (if we left the door open) she’d get out and wreck the house and hurt herself while we all sleep. I know this for a fact cause it’s happened several times before. If we gave them a potty in their room she’d spill the contents everywhere and play in it. She’s still at a stage where she does these things and thinks of crap as a toy. So we’re sort of baffled as to what to do to get her trained and to get our 4 year old able to go at night.
I like your last post farmwoman. The attitudes in the US about breastfeeding disgust me.
I haven’t read the rest of the thread yet, but some children are slower than others with training or are delayed in certain ways. Few end up wearing diapers to high school (or still nursing either) so lightening up and letting people raise their children is in order. When mine were new I was told by the mother of a successful local policeman that he crapped his drawers till he was almost five, and that I mustn’t let myself be driven crazy by bossy, nosy people. I love her to this day, and I never did go crazy. It passes one way or the other.
One thing there that is true and that is the social settings of the nursing. I am not to say what age it should be done(weaning), and my comment was inappropriate, or not thought out well enough before I opened the big mouth of mine. But I will give the reason for the statement. I have a 5 year old cousin who is still nursing, and if the mother was doing it in the “private” way I “FEEL”(again MY personal opinion, not to be mistaken as a judgement) I would not know and would not have been put in the position to feel “weird” about the beyond toddler who breast feeds.
No it is not in MY personal comfort zone, and yet some people do choose to feed for long periods of time, I don’t know the reasons, I just wish I wasn’t sitting across the table from it and forced to watch the 5 year old literally undress his mother for a "sippy, and expose her entire breast either one or both as she could care less because its NATURAL.
So I ask this, and ONLY as a very ignorant person in regards to breast feeding(I bottle fed all 4 of mine) why do some people feel its so natural that it doesn’t matter who sees? Please don’t misread me, I am just asking for others opinions to perhaps help me UNDERSTAND the reasons for the dinner time feedings while at the table with a group of people. I would imagine MOST of america does it in private(and the teeny baby’s that hide behind a blankie are not what I am talking about either.)
Please if anyone could, help me understand the social acceptance of this that I may be lacking because I chose to NOT breastfeed.
:smack: :smack: :smack:
Fair question, daveswifejen, and thanks for posting it. I guess it depends on what you mean by “it doesn’t matter who sees.”
Breastfeeding is natural and normal, and is as valid a way to address a hungry baby’s needs as bottle feeding. Some would argue even more valid. From this perspective, some moms feel that they ought to be able to nurse wherever they are, certainly anyplace where other moms would feel free using a bottle. Why should a nursing mom excuse herself and leave the room when a non-nursing mom can stay and enjoy the company?
Now, I say that with a few caveats:
First of all, I think this presumes a healthy, straightforward attitude about breastfeeding that isn’t , in actuality, very widespread in the U.S. As much as I believe people ought to think seeing some breastflesh is no big deal when a baby is being fed, we’re not there yet. This has caused enough trouble for nursing moms that some states have had to pass legislation saying a mom can nurse wherever she is. That it’s not “indecent exposure” to have one’s breast exposed for nursing. That sort of thing. Of course you’re not going to whip out a state statute at a dinner party and insist everyone get with the program. Some moms might just think it’s time for people to get over their backwards attitudes, so they nurse “openly” even though it might make some people a little edgy. Not everyone has an agenda, though. Some people just want to feed a hungry baby!
Second, it’s important to keep in mind that most moms make good efforts to be discreet. They cover themselves and baby as well as practically possible. With most nursing moms, it’s not that you’re SEEING the breast–you’re simply aware of the breast because you know the baby’s feeding. And then we’re getting into the fact that some people are simply squeamish about breastfeeding–which is their own personal issue, and not the sort of thing you ought to inflict on mothers (who are simnply doing their best) and their hungry babies.
Third, not all nursing moms are open and breastfeed anywhere. I nursed in front of my own family (Dad included). With my husband’s family, however, I wasn’t sure either of us would feel comfortable, so I left the room and nursed in private. Logically and practically I should not have had to do this, but, well, reality was different. I also didn’t nurse very often in public. I just felt vulnerable.
As for nursing a toddler (or preschooler)–I feel there is nothing wrong with it, and the medical community backs me up on this. However, all the moms I know who nurse toddlers are aware that not everyone feels this way, and they not only nurse in private, neither they nor their children talk about it. They work out something with their children where nursing is private time and done only at certain times of the day. I only know about the nursing because they know and trust me. It sounds like you’ve met someone who is a lot more open about it–either because she doesn’t care, or because she feels breastfeeding a toddler openly is an act of advocacy for breastfeeding. But frankly, I think those moms are pretty rare.
I find it’s a lot easier to be an advocate when it’s not your breast. My girlfriend was nursing in the food court of a shopping mall the other day. I probably wouldn’t have done it when my son was a baby. . . but I told her “If one of these backwards idiots says something to you, I’m prepared to leap over the table and whap them with my handbag.” LOL. I’m all for it when it’s someone else. I’m a wuss.
If it is the manners, I agree. There’s quite a bit of backlash manners loss going around. (I think it will adjust on its own when there are fewer women who feel they are being told that breastfeeding itself is somehow wrong or bad when someone asks them to be discreet - because usually they aren’t asked to be discreet, they are asked to ‘do that in the bathroom’, or ‘you can’t do that here’, as if it is the act itself that is disgusting.)
For some women, however, I think they become so desentisized to their breasts being exposed at home, they lose the social convention. I have to remind my son not to pull up my shirt in public, just because we ARE in public. Even with my in-laws around, I require him to nurse discreetly, even though I know he hates having the fabric of my shirt resting on his face. Same reasons I don’t really bug them (too much) about other behaviors at home (with no company), but with company, and when out in public, social conventions do come into play. My job to teach him that rules vary by location, condition, who is present, etc.
Toddlers can either learn to nurse discreetly, or the mom has the responsibility to manage the situation effectively. That may mean leaving the table and going to nurse in the car, or in another room. I’ve done that, too, when my sons are in a really stubborn phase. But I’ve also nursed a toddler sitting right next to my Brother-in-law, only to have him later call me, concerned because his daughter had become very sick shortly after our visit, and he ‘knew I wasn’t nursing anymore’ so he was afraid my son would be sicker even than she and wanted to let me know to keep an eye out. Oh yeah? It isn’t like he doesn’t know what it looks like, and I was right next to him. So I’m pretty discreet, I guess. His wife (my sister-in-law) is probably the least discreet nurser I know, personally - in her kids’ infancy, her shirt would be up to her armpit. Partly because she needed to see what she was doing to get them latched on right, but it was still impressive exposure in the :eek: kind of way. But later, and also when she nursed past a year, she would leave the room with her daughter (I don’t remember with her son), and nurse elsewhere. Given that even my very-who-cares self was somewhat taken aback by the exposure level she was comfortable with, that seems appropriate.
Underneath it all, I think the exposure has a few different causes. 1) people becoming desensitized, 2) a struggle with latch or positioning in infancy (which I can easily understand), 3) over-reaction/defensiveness/defiance (that is, insecurity) about nursing at all, and 4) half my master’s thesis… Which will take another paragraph (or 2 or 5) to explain:
My MA thesis dealt with code-switching, which is a linguistic behavior (at least that’s the typical approach). Code-switching is when people use a certain language, accent, vocabulary, or set of topics with one group, and a different set with another, swtiching between ‘codes’ as the situation, location, group membership, and context change. Code-switching is why people pick up accents of the people they are around, or drop accents from ‘home’ areas when they are away, why they use jargon with people who know the jargon, but not with those who don’t. Code-switching is a way of stating membership in a group, saying ‘I am the same as you’, even if you are different in a lot of other ways. Not code-switching can be a way of saying ‘I am different than you or member of another group FIRST and this one only second’. That meta-message makes us uncomfortable. It is the same discomfort reaction we have when someone always talks about their religion or children, no matter the setting, or makes us roll our eyes when someone always talks about their work, or their hobbies, no matter who they are talking to. They are stating by their topic choice that they are X (religious or parents or astrophysicists) before all else, and they are not joining the group they are with as members first of that group.
For example, when I am at work, I talk about work stuff with everyone (we are in the group ‘co-workers’). I talk about car troubles with the woman who has a similar commute (we are in the group ‘long-commute coworkers’). I talk about kids and families with the people who have (or are interested in) kids and family stuff (we are in the group ‘working parents or propsective working parents’). I talk about religion with nobody (no ‘religous coworkers’ classification in my workplace, or at least not pagan ones). When a group of coworkers who don’t know each other well start talking, we start from our jobs. Once we have established that ‘membership’, we may individualize - ask about family, chitchat about the commute that morning, etc. If the group as a whole has a second identity (working parents, for example), that subject then becomes one that establishes continued membership in the same group, and is open for general chitchat. It is within the code set that identifies us as like one-another.
But we all know people who start talking about their kids, or their health troubles, or whatever, regardless of whether they are with people who care or not. They are not code-switching, either through lack of skill or ability (which varies substantially), or because they truly see themselves as members of some other group before all others, regardless of the social implications of that. So people who retain an urban accent in a business-neutral accent environment may be saying ‘I refuse to relinquish my identity as an urbanite, even here’. It can be off-putting. Someone who always inserts their religion into non-religious conversations is saying ‘this is my identity, and I identify there before I identify with you’. And so forth. Whether they are doing so intentionally is really beside the point - they might never have noticed, they might not have the language skills (such as losing an accent can be difficult), they might not have the social awareness (nerds, for example - geeks at least usually know when to geek and when not to, IMHO), they might have so many group identities that include that aspect that they didn’t notice this one didn’t, or they might be doing it out of insecurity (clinging to the identity that makes them feel the most secure). But regardless of the reason, the result is that everyone else feels uncomfortable - the social cohesion is disrupted, because everyone but that person is using their social code to say “I am like you, I am a member of this group, you and I can relate (at least on this subject in this situation)” and one person is not.
So, long story short, we are uncomfortable with people who do things, say things, or act in ways that are not conforming with the social setting, membership of the group, and features of the group, because they are highlighting that they are NOT like us, they are NOT willing to be like us, or are unaware that there is even an US involved. Very uncomfortable, very divisive. (Which brings back the whole ‘bragging rights’ issue - it can, indeed, be a statement, even if it isn’t the statement they want to make.)
I do know people who nurse in public as a defiance statement - they want people to be exposed to public nursing in order to be desensitized more, because it is natural, and it is healthy, and it ‘should’ be acceptable. Cultural re-training, basically. But most of the ones I know who have that thread (which is typically secondary to just needing to feed their child where they happen to be), also do so with at least a modicum of discretion. Nursing is what they want acceptable, not total exposure. IF total exposure happens for a moment, by accident, they don’t want people to have to freak, but they are also trying to reduce the risk of that by being thoughtful - and yet not eliminate it by going to peculiar extremes, either. … and then there are the few who truly have an ‘I don’t care what anyone thinks, I’m going to act in public like I act at home’ attitude, which puts off even the other long-term breastfeeders. Kind of an anarchist approach - not wanting to modify the social norms, but live without them entirely. Fortunately, the ones who are doing that intentionally are pretty few and far between. Unfortunately, they’re really visible to a lot of people.
Does that explain a bit more? I think most of the time, IME, people just stop paying attention, because they’ve lost ALL boundaries regarding exposure (over time), and haven’t re-established normative ones. I certainly could not care less if someone sees my breast. But that doesn’t mean I don’t put some effort into being discreet. It isn’t for ME, it is for the sake of others that I follow some kind of social self-control, code-switch, etc. If I’m around a bunch of breastfeeding moms, I’m far less discreet, because I know they’re unlikely to care. But throw in one grandma (different generation), or a woman who didn’t breastfeed (unless she says directly that she doesn’t mind), or a man, or even any kid over toddler, and you’ll find me annoying my child by looping my finger in my shirt edge and holding it next to his face so he can’t grab it and extend his arm up to my shoulder level. Perhaps you could take your sister/sister-in-law aside and tell her that it makes you uncomfortable, not because you think she shouldn’t do it, but because it seems an inappropriate behavior in a mixed group - just like you don’t care if kids burp after eating, but after a certain age, they should say excuse me and try to keep their burps a bit discreet. (that analogy shouldn’t be offensive to her, I hope.) Good luck.
(the indiscretion part is what I was referring to there, in the analogy to burping - not the nursing at all. Basically, ‘the level of discretion makes me uncomfortable, can that be modified for mixed-groups?’)
Huh? The kid’s 4. Kids that age will tell you stuff like that. They have yet to acquire the “shame” of discussing bodily functions, etc. After, my son potty trained (at age 3), he would take a dump in the toilet, then come running to me wanting me to go look at it…
Yeah, wanting to show what they have “produced” is quite normal. My daughter used to count hers and then proudly announce “There’s Daddy, Mommy and me!”. If neccessary she added more relatives to the count. 
Oh, yeah, Coil. Mine used to ponder what kind of animals it was shaped like, named them after family and friends. I know this is getting TMI, but he even made up a song about poop (much to his mom’s chagrin):
Here on Planet Poopy
Everything is brown
Here on Planet Poopy
Everybody frowns
Here on Planet Poopy
Everything is stinky
Here on Planet Poopy
Everything goes (farting noise)
Poop songs today, An Arky, Broadway musicals tomorrow!
I bet Andrew Lloyd Weber has written a poop song or two …
What Was In On Me First
That was cloth training pants! That was due to that I was terrified to pee make and inside pants which I’d see my pee! Which I got a crush with cloth training pants, is that I’d only feel my pee, my pee is covered, tightly covers my penis and butt crack, and the soft feel of cotton! That’s why I’ve been walking into daycare inside my cloth training pants! Cloth training pants were my pee pants! Cloth training pants were my love pants!
weirdness reported. please take it away.
Love pants, baby!
Why Cloth Training Pants Were My First Pants
Just like when you first bike you have training wheels! Due to that I was terrified seeing my pee such as peeing naked and peeing inside pants! While cloth training pants are a crush due to that I only feel my pee, covers my pee, the feel on my penis and butt crack, and covers my penis and butt crack! Cloth training pants were my love pants! Cloth training pants were my pee pants! Simple to put on then pants! However, when I could take of my pants, I’m never naked, due to that my cloth training pants were still on me due to that I couldn’t take of my cloth training pants! That’s why my cloth training pants remain still on me after I could take of my pants!
I’m of profound mental retardation! Don’t think that way of the profoundly mentally retarded!